Let¹s Get While the Gettins¹ Good

[cakadu]

Emrald, the oil may not run out in our life time, it may not even run out in your grandchildrens lifetime, but it is a non-renewable resource which means that it will run out or get to the point where there is nothing worth bothering to go and get. Guestimates - and that's all they are - is that it will last for 150 years, which sounds like a long time, but in the grand scheme of things is like the blink of an eye. Consider how long it took for those pools of oil and tarsands to develop in the first place.

I have no problem with people believing that we are getting the shaft from Ottawa, because in large part I don't necessarily believe that the dollars are being spent in the wisest manner and the same could be said in our individual provinces and municipalities from time to time. What I do have a problem with is the seeming intolerance for a different viewpoint from the "separatists." In fact, I would go so far as to say that intolerance is worse than apathy but that is my own opinion.

Farmers_son is right - we all have choices in terms of where we want to live, what we do, etc. etc. What may seem like slacking to you or I, may be somebody's best at the time - we don't know their circumstances or haven't walked the proverbial mile in their shoes, so who are we to say they aren't doing enough? Perhaps our separatists can join Quebec separatists and get the best of both worlds - be separate AND get this perceived largesse.

[cakadu]

Linda, everyone that knows me will tell you that I am the first one to put myself in anothers shoes. Separatism is not the answer for any part of this country, however, we have spent billions appeasing Quebec so they would not leave confederation.
The analagy I use is of a family where one of the children is determined to leave and strike out on their own, catering to that one at the expense of the rest of the children just to get them to change their mind is non productive and likely will make the rest of the children resent the one that wants to leave.

Alberta got the shaft in the depression days, so did Saskatchewan. People here were starving, the countryside was virtually a dustbowl.
I have heard many of the pioneers in the oil business in this province speak of how they went to bankers in eastern Canada begging hat in hand for venture capital to explore for oil and gas only to be laughed out of town.

Now we look pretty attractive. If the feds in their wisdom try and help themselves to our resource revenue as they did in Lougheeds time you will see separatism rear its head in this province that will make Quebec's pale in comparison. Is it a good thing, no, but Albertans are fed up with being the ugly sister, then tolerated because we have learned some decent table manners !!! Kind of like the family where the son marries into 'old' money and they look down their nose at his farmer parents because they earn their living in close proximity to little bit of SH__ !!!

[grassfarmer]

Emrald1, It would appear obvious to me that mankind must prepare for the day when oil runs out - it is a finite resource. The chairman and CEO of Chevron oil stated recently that it took 125 years to use the first trillion barrels of oil - the next trillion will be used in 30 years and also that the world currently consumes two barrels for every new barrel discovered. Hubbert's "Bell curve" theory indicates that any given country or region would reach the peak of it's production curve at approximately the point half it's oil reserves were used up - after that it's all downhill. Most experts consider that the peak will be reached in the next couple of decades, some suggest we are at that point now. This affects not only Alberta but the world and we have got to address this problem seriously - sticking our heads in the sand (even the tar sands) will not provide a solution.

Cakadu, I wouldn't disagree with your opinion that separatists intolerance is worse than apathy, it certainly turns me right off wanting to a seperatist cause succeed in Alberta.
I think also that seperatists feel their general disatisfaction with current politicians will somehow be sidestepped by becoming independant. Politicians are politicians whatever the Government set up - you need to learn how to live with them or if you can't replace the people you elect - it's called democracy. Having "escaped" from Scotland just as the seperatist clowns took over there I'm told there is as much dissatisfaction with politicians now as there ever was. This is doubly compounded by now having three levels of Government to pay for instead of two. I assume this would be the case with Alberta too? you would still pay Ottawa for such things as national defense - or are we planning on having an Alberta army, navy and airforce too? Projects like this would soon make you realise how little wealth we have - longterm.

[ivbinconned]

The oil will run out...so the "experts" say! Remember Y2K.

The elected men that you say we can not control...are the ones, we in the west, don't elect! Thus is the reason for our debate!

At this point in the disscusion it might be instructive to go to...

http://www.citizenscentre.com/pdf/ccfd_special_report_2005.pdf

[cakadu]

The comparison between Y2K and oil is a non-starter.

Emrald, your voice is not the one I'm referring to, in fact I do believe that you go the extra mile and then some to understand another's viewpoint.

My father in law was in the oil patch for over 50 years before he retired a few years back and he has stories to tell about the patch pre-1947. No one wants to see a repeat of the NEP and the problems that caused.

I don't believe you go outside of a relationship to fix relationship problems - no matter what the relationship might be. Still, not once in this debate has anyone been able to state why things shifted after Diefenbaker ran the country with 208 seats. Never before or since has that happened and he was from the West. Again, I wasn't around when he ran the country but I don't remember hearing too many bad things about him. So what happened to shift the balance of representation from West to the East?

Let's see now... on our track record of elected officials in the West - Devine, Getty, Lougheed, Clark (BC), Campbell (BC), and the list could go on. All elected by Western folks - would you want them represening us on a stand-alone basis? I think not. Trouble is that the cream doesn't necessarily rise to the top, nor is it often given the opportunity. (Look at the list of wannabees lining up in anticipation here in Alberta.)

Remember, the cow always thinks the grass is greener on the other side - until she gets there.

[kpb]

The discussion about the oil "running out" is completely misguided. The biggest beneficiary in North America of oil apparently running out is Alberta because of our huge oilsand reserves which are very profitable at current oil prices. At the current rate of production and given only the current known reserves, there is oil from the oilsands to last 450 years. And there seem to be more sands to be discovered.

But lets assume for a minute that oil is running out, even in Alberta. It is not here one day and gone the next--the oil supplies will dwindle over a very long time and as that happens the price will go up and up and up and all Albertans will get richer and richer. The future of this province, inside or outside Canada, is very bright. With our supplies of oil, we will be making a lot of money if world oil reserves are not running down (possible) and make more if world oil supplies are running down (shortages will drive up prices).

If the feds try to make a grab for this money, this time, you will see Albertans push to get out of confederation. No offence intended, grassfarmer, but Ottawa has consistently taken and taken from Alberta with no regard for the wishes of our citizenry. There is a strong undercurrent to get out in this province which just needs a catalyst to ignite--that catalyst could well be a new NEP. Grassfarmer, there is a long history of this abuse here that perhaps you do not feel as a newcomer.

kpb

[ivbinconned]

Cakadu my comment about Y2K is directed at the UN-reliability of "experts". I take note of the timing of your post compared to mine and the high probability that you did not "take the time". Nor I suspect, did you look at
http://www.citizenscentre.com/pdf/ccfd_special_report_2005.pdf


Dief was brought down by the eastern scum in his own party. Since then the message from eastern Canada has been clear...if they don't lead it (or control it), they will never support it.

As to your "grass is greener" analogy, NONSENSE!

History is full, fortunatly, of stories of freed people. Some in my own family. Tell them that the grass isn't greener. Have you not followed the souther U.S. border issue? Are you not aware of the millions that have flocked to the shores of North America?

What brought them here...I suspect "greener grass"!

[ivbinconned]

grassfarmer I appreciate your insight into what happened in Scotland. Many of us have never lived under any government except what we have had in Alberta, either Social Credit or Conservative and of course Conservative and Liberal in Ottawa. It is difficult to imagine our province not being a part of Canada, and I think when push comes to shove Quebecers will never separate either because cooler heads will prevail and recognize the near impossibility of any province going it on their own.
In my opinion becoming part of the US is not on the table !!!
If we could see some semblance of fairness and integrity coming from Ottawa regardless of what party is in power I think that Albertans would not feel so alienated.

[ivbinconned]

And another thing, Cakadu, you again, as in the past always when I take issue with the federal dominance in our lives like to switch the issue to the provincial leaders you detest and some how try to make the leap that I would be giving our provincial leaders a free ride. Thus negating any arguments for independence.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

However as long as all the really important powers in this country are under the unchecked power of our federal government forgive me if I focus on that here. First things first.
When the time comes that our masters are closer to those who elected them...believe me I will be there.

And if you want to blast away at the corruption with in your provincial sphere ...go for it...I support you 100%!

In fact here is some help, from another site.

Sunday Aug 28, 2005

I must say that I'm flabbergasted by all of these so-called "conservatives" in Canada at both the federal and provincial level jumping to the defense of Sir Ralph Klein over Alberta’s tax surplus.

Who cares really if the state of Ottawa, its bureaucrats, and sycophants want Alberta’s tax surplus? Is there any real difference between Captain Canada’s Paul Martin and Sir Ralph Klein’s taxing and spending ways?

Albertans need to be protected from Edmonton’s King Klein and his sycophants more than Ottawa I would argue…Surely I’m not the only free-marketer appalled over Canada’s biggest socialist spender? Can anyone name another Canadian government at either the federal or provincial level who spends more money on collective state programs on a per-capita or gross basis then Klein?

Here is the best part of the deal however: Alberta which is Canada's most wealthy province is still poorer then America's poorest state, Alabama...Not bad Albertans, you are number 51 in North America...Imagine that Alabama has higher incomes, lower taxes, and higher savings...

So the question which should be asked is, should Albertans "share" more of their earnings with King Klein of Edmonton?

Alberta should look at rolling back not only the size but also the role of the state!

[grassfarmer]

kpb, about the oil - Alberta may have very large reserves at current production levels but if we have the biggest reserves left when the MiddleEast oil is gone it won't last the world market long. My concern about the oil running out is not how much money we or anyone else can make selling it in a shortage. Without oil life as we know it is over - we could not feed the world with current methods without oil. With a growing world population and finite oil reserves we must face the challenge of how to cope "post oil". It's not a matter of "if" we use the oil up rather "when" we use it.
So are we having an Alberta army, navy and airforce when you take over ivbinconned?

[madcow]

grassfarmer and farmers_son, I'm with you.Too numerous items to list them all,but I'm with ya.I don't belong to any political party,I support the guys who makes the most sense to me,(who just happen to be conservative at this time).I love Nova Scotia and Canada in that order . We should try to make this work to the benefit of all. Good to see your down to earth ,common sense here to off set the radical views.

[kpb]

madcow, I'm sorry but the people in Alberta who are considering opting out of confederation are not radicals. There are very many business people, oilmen and ranchers among other common folks who are fed up to the teeth with getting kicked by central Canada.

And of this you can be sure--if there is any attempt by the federal government to steal the oil and gas revenues of Alberta again, you may be sure that leaving Canada will not just be the talk of radicals but of most Albertans.


kpb