Let¹s Get While the Gettins¹ Good

[ivbinconned]

Glad you brought that up grassfarmer. I emphamphasize with your sentiment...BUT!

Under the constitutional amending formula Alberta is and will always remain a colony of central Canada...BECAUSE...any amendment that is of interest to Alberta as far as the division of government powers (ie. triple E senate)etc must meet the approval of either Ontario or Quebec and a total of 7 provinces!

If you know your history you will know that never in history has power been known to voluntarly give itself up. IT MUST be wrestled away.

As a new comer to this fine land it may take some time for you to appreciate the fact that western canada has repeatedly over the past 50 years produced, again and again, protest parties that dreamed...(denying reality) that they could keep the baby and just throw out the bath water.

But alas there is no end of people who don't dispute any of the facts raised in articles like I posted of the proffessor's, but rather attack those, who like me say...it is time to take a stand...if you we want to force a change.

It is the only way to even get your hands close to the bath tub.

[cowman]

Ivebinconned can get a little passionate about it but the fact is slowly the idea is coming across that the western Canadian people(Alberta in particular) are becoming disatisfied with the "arrangement" of Canadian confederation? The old western based parties wrestled some concessions out of Ottawa but control is firmly in the hands of our eastern masters!
And yet every people have a right to decide their own destiny and if the day ever comes when the majority want to leave it will happen? I would suggest we are slowly moving in that direction?
I believe the professor was very correct in saying now is the time to go if that is our intention? We can do it!
Consider this: A region with an abundance of natural resources. A super powerful neighbor that is our best customer and shares our philosphy of economics as well as social policy? We can have a very good relationship with them because our leaders won't be calling them bastards and morons!
No more sending our wealth down to Ottawa so they can prop up people too lazy to take care of themselves and curb their spending to their income!
The fact is we would be a lot better off both financially and in a social justice sense if we were a seperate and independent country?

[ivbinconned]

"knowing what to do with what we know is the true essence of learnng"

"The success of a movement is not determined by what we believe, but by what we do to make those convictions become a reality."

The definition of insanity..."doing the same thing and expecting different results!"

Thanks cowman. Reform, Alliance was just repeating CCF, NDP, Socreds, Progressives. I refuse to deny reality. The professor is just another of a long and growing list of people that are not pulling any punches in their analysis of the make up of this CON-federation.

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds."

Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
German physicist, Nobel Prize winner

[farmers_son]

Which minds represent great spirits and which minds are mediocre has more to do with whether that particular mind agrees with your perspective or not rather than any quantitative or qualitative measure of intelligence.

[ivbinconned]

I take note that not one of you who take exception to the facts and conclusions expressed in the artical have challenged one thing that the professor writes.

Rather your response has been a knee jerk reaction of rejection, with no substance!

Juvenile!

[cowman]

Ivebinconned: You have to realize most Canadians have been brainwashed from an early age to be patriotic and believe we live in the best country in the world? The school system has taught us that as well as all our eastern based media?
The reality of the situation suggests otherwise but it seems we pathetically stand around waving little maple leaf flags and babbling about our great medi care system! After all the CBC said we were great, right?
Hopefully the message will get through when those paragons of virtue(the Liberal Party) are swept back into power with a majority in 2006? If that doesn't do it we might have to wait until they make a tax grab( in the national interest LOL) sometime in the near future, so they can buy off the Frenchmen!
Exciting times ahead for sure? Hopefully in Alberta we'll get rid of old Klein and get someone in who can't be bought off? Someone who will stand up for our freedom and independence?

[farmers_son]

Ivbinconned: I believe I put forward facts showing that Albertans receive money from Ottawa as well as send money to Ottawa.

I would point out that the numbers shown did not include federal contributions to federal/provincial ag programs which for Alberta in 2002,2003 and 2004 would amount to be in the billions of dollars for BSE and drought aid.

I would further point out that all you contributed was a rather unenlightened paste and some quotes taken out out context with no supporting facts of your own.

[ivbinconned]

F_S you have come late to the party. I have posted plenty in the past here dealing with this isssue as cowman could attest to.

Also any monies that have come from the feds to Alberta is just your own coming back...so whats your point.

As to the Quotes...what can I say...they have gone over your head.

For just a little taste of what I have posted before you came on board...

posted Sep 6, 2003 11:04

From 1991 to 1999, there was a 78%reduction in direct federal expenditures in support of the agri-food sector in Sask. and a 69% reduction for Alberta. In the same time period there was only a 27% reduction in Quebec. I am NOT bad mouthing the Quebec farmer but I do "bad mouth" a system that bleeds money from Alberta to "lavishly" support farms in another province. If Alberta farmers don't mind this at least you would think they would rise up and insist that the money goes to there neighboring province where there grandpa and uncles farm.
Now that is just the federal expenditures! What about the "lavish" support of Alberta dollars the Quebec farmer gets through their provincial government via federal transfers...hush-hush...were not supposed to know.
While I have seen my Saskatchewan assets drop in value 50% in the last 10 to 15 years, in Quebec the high level of Quebec government support is a major reason why average net worth of grain and oil seed producers increased 51.3% compared to 12.7 per cent in Ontario from 93 to 97; during the same period, average assets in Quebec increased by 53.5 per cent compared to 15.8% in Ontario.
When total crop receipts for Quebec were just $1.3 billion as compared to Ontario’s $3.1 billion the Quebec Ag ministry spent $527 million while Ontario's spent just $372 million! Neat what you can do as a "have not" province while Alberta sleeps.

I have said it before in these threads, what does a pick pocket do? He makes you look the other way! So we are told to look and blame the U.S. and Europe, while with in our own country the 21 year old Quebec ASRA programs (indirectly funded with ALBERTA money) heaps impressive benefits on, for example, in Quebec a 780 acre corn grower over a 9 year period ending in 99 amounted to $580,000, or an average of $64,445 per year with a 99 provision of $99,480! Not bad eh!
This program now includes all ag production and guess what, it is acreage based, cost of production based, and also has an interesting aspect to it in that the benefits are based on 90% of a skilled workers wages in Quebec, ie. nurse, teacher, government employees, etc.

Could this be why the average age of farmers in Quebec is much lower than say Saskatchewan?

Could it be that a net payout in 1999 of $120.00 per acre (over and above his crop)of barley to a Quebec farmer is why he could afford to send us that load of hay that the Canadian Alliance got so excited about and we where all supposed to feel so warm and fuzzy about. Give me a break

[ivbinconned]

Heres some more F_S...

When the redistribution of Alberta's wealth (which was not gained because of government...BUT in spite of government) is doled out to another province in the way I spelled it out ($120.00 per acre!!). We should be out raged. This is not charity, this is highway robbery! This is why they always tell us to blame the U.S. and Europe and everybody else! Make you look the other way.
This is what happens when there is a transfer of wealth from government to government instead of person to person...with the constitutionally entrenched equalization system today a family in Alberta with an income of $30,000 to $40,000 contribute about $3,150; a Newfoundland family with income of more than $100,000.00 gets a benefit of $1200.00!!
This is taking from the truck diver in Alberta and giving to the Doctor in the East.
This is taking from the guy that fixes your car in a Alberta and giving it to a lawyer in P.E.I.
Maybe Albertans think this is cool...but then again do they really know the extent of this scam?
Do they have the courage to do something about it??


You might as well take down that flag F_S and put up that Alberta flag...youvbinconned

[farmers_son]

Your numbers are interesting if only because they illustrate how numbers can be twisted and distorted.

However I agree that Quebec supports their agriculture more than Alberta or Saskatchewan. In Alberta, government support is directed more towards the oil sector in the form of cheap royalties; that is a political decision. Quebec taxpayers support agriculture to an extent not seen in Alberta and Saskatchewan. I fail to see how separating from Canada will fix that problem. There is no guarantee that a separate Alberta or Saskatchewan will support agriculture any more than is seen now.

The gist of the arguments in favour of separation revolve around Alberta sending more money to Ottawa in the form of taxes then it receives back in direct transfers and benefits. To keep the debate in focus it needs to be realized that Alberta does receive benefits from the federal government. While a lot of numbers have been tossed around the best numbers I have seen suggest that Alberta perhaps contributes as much as $1.5 billion more to Ottawa than it receives back, mostly as a result of our very strong economy. It is very possible given the extent of direct and indirect federal BSE support since 2003 that Alberta has actually received more from Ottawa than Albertans and Alberta corporations paid in federal taxes. I guess it depends on which numbers you believe.

You talk about misdirection, if Ottawa is giving Alberta a raw deal doesn’t that overlook the fact that the U.S. is giving Alberta a raw deal right now too and what makes anyone think we could possibly be better off separating from Canada and becoming an U.S. state so we can really get screwed by Americans. Not to mention seeing our children sent off to get shot in Iraq to boot.

We have a pretty darn good country here with pretty darn good values for the most part.

[cowman]

farmers son: With all due respect you are diverting? On all kinds of things?
First of all:No one is sending anyone to Iraq against their will. The American army is strictly volunteer...no draft PERIOD! If you join the army of your own free will then you can expect to be a soldier and do the job?
Yes Alberta does help out the oil and gas industry. That is their bread and butter and it only makes sense? It also is VERY generous to the ag sector? Where does this AG money come from?...the oil and gas sector?
I tend to talk a lot about Alberta but in reality the border doesn't end at Lloydminister! Or Dawson BC! Maybe it doesn't even end at the Manitoba border?
The reality of this country has always been the colonies allow the center to flourish at our expense and whatever Quebec wants, Quebec gets! It gets it because it allows the "power elite" to stay in power! And that "power elite" is the golden triangle?
Consider your numbers? I have posted export figures on here that show just how much oil and gas contribute to our export numbers? The fact is that is what is paying the bills? That is what our neighbor wants and that is what they will pay for?
I suspect when the day comes when Alberta declares it will leave, you will see a war. The fact is without the resource revenue this country is bankrupt.

[farmers_son]

Cowman: It is also true that almost 50% of American voters voted against the Iraq war. And while there was interest expressed by some disenfranchised Americans in immigrating to Canada after the last U.S. election there was no talk of separation.

I would venture to say that in this day and age if you were an American and made statements to the effect that a U.S. state or states should separate from the Union there would be very, very serious consequences. We Canadians tend to take our freedoms and the peace of mind we enjoy in this country a little too lightly at times.

Obviously Quebec has been well looked after as of late. There was a time in Canadian history when such was not always the case. And other Canadians could easily look to Quebec separatists and say if threats of separation work for Quebec lets try it here in the west. However that overlooks the head offices that have left Quebec because of the threat of separation, the investment dollars that went elsewhere and the opportunities that were lost.

[cowman]

farmers son: What head offices might we lose? The energy sector? That is just about the only ones we have and quite frankly I don't think so?
50% of Americans probably don't think the war in Iraq is a good idea...without a doubt! You would have to be basically an idiot to think it was a good idea! Unfortunately there are a lot of idiots in America! At least we can agree on that? America is in the process of ruining their economy trying to bring about a situation where they can't win?
No argument here on that point.
That has nothing to do with our situation? The fact is we have a country that is basically not fair? Where one region is subject to a different set of standards than the rest? Is that tenable? Is that fair?
How come when Alberta has a windfall(oil and gas) we all have to share, but when Quebec has a windfall(hydro electricity) then keep your hands off, that is ours! Especially since a good part of it came from screwing the Newfies out of their share!
Well the fact is the Canadian reality is to hell with the hinterlands...just so long as the wealth flows to Quebec and Ontario!
The Maritimes got screwed just as bad as we did in the west...probably worse? Unfortunately they have basically decided to kiss some butt so they might get a few crumbs! It is a sad thing to see, and I sure don't want my grandchildren to be in a postion where they have to go bowing and scraping to those dogs in Ottaw/Toronto/Montreal?
One day we are all required to stand up and be a man and say ENOUGH! Either that or decide it is better to be a slave? That day is fast approaching?

[cakadu]

There have been lots of "reasons" why we need to separate and people are entitled to their opinions. What is sorely lacking, however, are viable solutions that present a decent alternative to what we already have. What hope do we have of being governed any better on our own than standing with Canada? There are times when Alberta is perceived to be throwing it's weight around because we are one of the "haves", so how would this make things better for the so-called West? Have we seen any better examples of governance from the Western Provinces to inidicate that things would improve if we did go? We send so much in royalties because we are exploiting what we have and we are also spending it as fast as we are making it too, with no forethought to future generations and the fact that they are entitled to the wealth we are enjoying as well.

I'm posting an article written by Todd Hirsch of the Canada West Foundation that puts a different perspective to this debate.

The Brandon Sun August 16, 2005
By Todd Hirsch

The word ?fight? actually appeared in the title of a recent press release from the government of Saskatchewan and that says a lot.

The issue of the day, at least for the Saskatchewan government, is the equalization program and Premier Lorne Calvert is quoted in the press release as saying: ?Treatment of Saskatchewan's
non-renewable resources continues to be a problem under equalization. It punishes
development in the energy sector and exports the financial benefits from our energy resources to other provinces??

He?s right, of course. The problems plaguing our national system of sharing between provinces ? in other words, the
equalization program ? do result in unfair treatment. Ask enough provinces, however, and the system is thought to be unfair by someone.

The equalization program was set up in the 1950s by the federal government with the laudable goal of attempting to create a system that would ensure the poorer provinces are brought up to some average level of financial resource. The idea is
that regardless of the province in which they live, all Canadians should be entitled to roughly equal levels of social services, health care and
education for roughly equal levels of taxes paid.

But as with a lot of government programs, what started out as a good idea has resulted in a national pillow fight. It?s
certainly not that the concept of sharing between provinces has soured ? in fact, Canadians in general support the idea. But what is increasingly seen as unwise is the execution of the program itself.

There are dozens of problems and
disagreements surrounding the current program. Should natural resources be included in the formula? Should provinces face clawbacks? Do payments provide a
disincentive for a have-not province to develop economically?

These issues are currently being debated before the Expert Panel on Equalization, set up by the federal government, in hearings across the country. The panel is
to present its final report to the finance minister by December.

I won?t get into the intricacies of the problems and debate here: they are too numerous to address. But three points in
particular bear mentioning:

The first point is a myth that needs to be debunked, the myth that the ?have? provinces 9usually Alberta and Ontario,
but now also Saskatchewan) pay into the equalization pot and the ?have not? provinces draw out of it. This isn?t the way it works.

In fact, provinces don?t pay into the equalization pot at all ? individuals do. All taxpayers finance the program and Ottawa dishes out cash directly to the
governments of the ?have not? provinces.

True, the Alberta and Ontario governments do not receive any payments from Ottawa. But it is just plain wrong to believe that these two provinces pay in while
the other provinces take out. It may seem like a minor point, but it is an important one to understand as it can powerfully shape the debate.

The second point is that much of the current battle over equalization stems not from the concept of sharing itself but from the numerous side deals that have been struck. This is a political problem, not an economic one.

Too often, the equalization program has become an ace card for the federal government to play in order to appease some particular province.

The equalization formula itself is not all that complex; what makes it complex are all of the side deals, exceptions,
amendments, and special concessions that have been tacked on over the years.

The final point is that there is a real danger of the equalization program becoming yet another lightning rod for
regional alienation. Alberta is already a ?have? province, Saskatchewan became one this year and if recent economic trends are any indication, British Columbia will re-join the rich provinces club soon.

That means three of the four ?have? provinces are in the West. If the system is not changed to address some of its
more glaring shortcomings ? especially around the unfair side deals ? it will become increasingly difficult for the
?have? provinces in the West to convince themselves that Confederation is a good idea.

The Expert Panel on Equalization has a huge task ahead of it. How do we take an existing program that is based on a good concept and make it workable?

How can we keep it from pitting province against province, region against region? Let us hope that the panel?s
recommendations are bold and ? more importantly ? that the federal government follows through with some changes.

[cakadu]

Jack Layton was in Edmonton today spouting off that its only fair for Alberta to share its wealth. If Martin keeps his word ( for once ) and doesn't try another NEP grab on AB., then we can thank the man upstairs that the NDP aren't in office !!!!! Comments like Laytons are what pit province against province Linda, and it is non productive. The NWT and Yukon have no autonomy over their natural resources which is dead wrong. They could do wonders for their people if they had some resource revenue to build roads, create jobs etc.