Let¹s Get While the Gettins¹ Good

[farmers_son]

Cakadu, thanks for the good post and Grassfarmer too in an earlier post.

Cowman: You might be interested in this site which breaks down the head offices of Canada’s 800 largest corporations by province. On a per capita basis Alberta has more head offices than any other province. On an actual number basis Alberta is third behind Ontario who is first and Quebec a distant second. Some people think of head offices as where the buck stops. It is probably more accurate to think of head offices as where the decisions are made.

See: http://www.bcbc.com/archive/Corporate%20Head%20Offices%20Jan%202005.pdf

Just to clarify a point, there is corporate money circulating in the economy and tax money going to Ottawa and back and forth to the provinces that have both been mentioned in this thread. They are two different things.

I have heard my father say much the same thing as you about our wealth all going east. I myself would wonder about how much of our wealth goes south. However I think we need to consider that wealth does not sit idle in the economy, it is constantly on the move not sitting in a sock somewhere. Money moves east and south and probably comes back again. Alberta is the strongest economy in Canada right now and given the price of oil it is no wonder.

[grassfarmer]

Cowman, "One day we are all required to stand up and be a man and say ENOUGH! Either that or decide it is better to be a slave?"
So you'll fight Central Canada for your freedom but you won't do anything against the bigger and more immediate threat of becoming an American slave? Strange thinking.

[cowman]

Well first of all if being paid very well for a product is being a slave then I have no problem there? Giving away wealth created in this province in the form of taxation for nothing but abuse...I have a problem with?
If the "firewalls" suggested were in place Alberta would collect all taxes in Alberta and send Ottawa what they saw as fair. The "gasoline tax" would be a good example? Designed to build and maintain the infrastructure? Let the tax collected on the road tax go to build and maintain the roads in Alberta?
Let Quebec and PEI pay for their bridges and roads out of their own share of the road tax? Don't take the $1 billion from Alberta and pave all the roads in Quebec while we pound it out on the potholes!
If my family is poor because we don't get out and hustle does that mean we should have all the goodies of the guy busting his butt down the road? That is basically not a good thing because it kills incentive and a good work ethic?
Works the same with regions? Why should the Quebec government get its house in order as long as someone else is picking up the tab? And then to top it off by whining for some more! We have a situation where the Quebec citizen gets more from this "welfare" than the ones paying for it! Do you think that is fair? Is that a good sustainable system?

[FarmRanger]

Nice choice grassfarmer, put up with the status quo, or be an American slave. Somehow, I think we aren’t that limited in our choices.

We can talk all we want about money moving here there and everywhere, but the fact still remains that when our TAX money goes into the sinkhole in Ottawa, precious little ever returns. It is taxed away from hard working Canadians, and spent in dubious ways by corrupt and power hungry Liberals who’ve been in office far too long. Their contempt for the taxpayer is deplorable, resulting in Adscams, and election vote buying becoming an industry funded by us, the taxpayers.

[farmers_son]

Although today we are fortunate to have Canada’s strongest economy most people forget that Alberta received equalization payments from 1957 to 1964. In fact Alberta was among the first provinces to receive equalization payments in Canada. Interestingly enough the idea for equalization came from an American economist James Buchanan who became the United States 15th President. Buchanan developed the concept after watching the United States break out in civil war between the North and South.

I would point out that Alberta’s wealth did not come because Albertans are harder workers than people in Newfoundland or even that our government managed things better here. Our wealth came because of the BNA act enacted March 29, 1867 which gave provinces jurisdiction over Non-Renewable Natural Resources, Forestry Resources and Electrical Energy.

We must remember that provinces do not pay taxes to Ottawa. Canadian citizens and corporations in the country pay taxes to Ottawa who then distribute those dollars throughout the country. Canadian citizens and corporations too are free to move and reside anywhere in the country they wish. If anyone thinks Alberta is getting such a rotten deal from Confederation they can move to another province if they so desire and reap the benefits of Ottawa’s largess directly. However when we see the building booms in Calgary and Edmonton and along the #2 corridor it would seem as if the opposite is happening and Canadians are moving to Alberta in record numbers. The gist of the argument for separation cannot then be that things are not good in Alberta rather if the west separated things would be even better. That argument could look very hollow once the oil runs out.

[farmers_son]

We keep hearing about the doom and gloom when the oil runs out. Interestingly enough when I was first elected to municipal council we heard that we needed to pave all the road when the oil industry was still paying a huge chunk of the taxes. I never agreed with that line of thinking but over the years certain factions of council in their wisdom commenced paving local roads in a random ad hoc manner ( past their own property mainly ) and royally ticked off the oil industry because they could not move about to do their business. I don't think we have to be overly concerned with the prospect of oil being depleted to nothing. The potential of the tar sands hasn't even been tapped, new technology is being developed daily to get production out of shut in wells all across the province and new exploration is happening daily.
Scare mongering about what is going to happen when Alberta is out of oil is just a red herring as far as I am concerned.

[cakadu]

Emrald, the oil may not run out in our life time, it may not even run out in your grandchildrens lifetime, but it is a non-renewable resource which means that it will run out or get to the point where there is nothing worth bothering to go and get. Guestimates - and that's all they are - is that it will last for 150 years, which sounds like a long time, but in the grand scheme of things is like the blink of an eye. Consider how long it took for those pools of oil and tarsands to develop in the first place.

I have no problem with people believing that we are getting the shaft from Ottawa, because in large part I don't necessarily believe that the dollars are being spent in the wisest manner and the same could be said in our individual provinces and municipalities from time to time. What I do have a problem with is the seeming intolerance for a different viewpoint from the "separatists." In fact, I would go so far as to say that intolerance is worse than apathy but that is my own opinion.

Farmers_son is right - we all have choices in terms of where we want to live, what we do, etc. etc. What may seem like slacking to you or I, may be somebody's best at the time - we don't know their circumstances or haven't walked the proverbial mile in their shoes, so who are we to say they aren't doing enough? Perhaps our separatists can join Quebec separatists and get the best of both worlds - be separate AND get this perceived largesse.

[cakadu]

Linda, everyone that knows me will tell you that I am the first one to put myself in anothers shoes. Separatism is not the answer for any part of this country, however, we have spent billions appeasing Quebec so they would not leave confederation.
The analagy I use is of a family where one of the children is determined to leave and strike out on their own, catering to that one at the expense of the rest of the children just to get them to change their mind is non productive and likely will make the rest of the children resent the one that wants to leave.

Alberta got the shaft in the depression days, so did Saskatchewan. People here were starving, the countryside was virtually a dustbowl.
I have heard many of the pioneers in the oil business in this province speak of how they went to bankers in eastern Canada begging hat in hand for venture capital to explore for oil and gas only to be laughed out of town.

Now we look pretty attractive. If the feds in their wisdom try and help themselves to our resource revenue as they did in Lougheeds time you will see separatism rear its head in this province that will make Quebec's pale in comparison. Is it a good thing, no, but Albertans are fed up with being the ugly sister, then tolerated because we have learned some decent table manners !!! Kind of like the family where the son marries into 'old' money and they look down their nose at his farmer parents because they earn their living in close proximity to little bit of SH__ !!!

[grassfarmer]

Emrald1, It would appear obvious to me that mankind must prepare for the day when oil runs out - it is a finite resource. The chairman and CEO of Chevron oil stated recently that it took 125 years to use the first trillion barrels of oil - the next trillion will be used in 30 years and also that the world currently consumes two barrels for every new barrel discovered. Hubbert's "Bell curve" theory indicates that any given country or region would reach the peak of it's production curve at approximately the point half it's oil reserves were used up - after that it's all downhill. Most experts consider that the peak will be reached in the next couple of decades, some suggest we are at that point now. This affects not only Alberta but the world and we have got to address this problem seriously - sticking our heads in the sand (even the tar sands) will not provide a solution.

Cakadu, I wouldn't disagree with your opinion that separatists intolerance is worse than apathy, it certainly turns me right off wanting to a seperatist cause succeed in Alberta.
I think also that seperatists feel their general disatisfaction with current politicians will somehow be sidestepped by becoming independant. Politicians are politicians whatever the Government set up - you need to learn how to live with them or if you can't replace the people you elect - it's called democracy. Having "escaped" from Scotland just as the seperatist clowns took over there I'm told there is as much dissatisfaction with politicians now as there ever was. This is doubly compounded by now having three levels of Government to pay for instead of two. I assume this would be the case with Alberta too? you would still pay Ottawa for such things as national defense - or are we planning on having an Alberta army, navy and airforce too? Projects like this would soon make you realise how little wealth we have - longterm.

[ivbinconned]

The oil will run out...so the "experts" say! Remember Y2K.

The elected men that you say we can not control...are the ones, we in the west, don't elect! Thus is the reason for our debate!

At this point in the disscusion it might be instructive to go to...

http://www.citizenscentre.com/pdf/ccfd_special_report_2005.pdf

[cakadu]

The comparison between Y2K and oil is a non-starter.

Emrald, your voice is not the one I'm referring to, in fact I do believe that you go the extra mile and then some to understand another's viewpoint.

My father in law was in the oil patch for over 50 years before he retired a few years back and he has stories to tell about the patch pre-1947. No one wants to see a repeat of the NEP and the problems that caused.

I don't believe you go outside of a relationship to fix relationship problems - no matter what the relationship might be. Still, not once in this debate has anyone been able to state why things shifted after Diefenbaker ran the country with 208 seats. Never before or since has that happened and he was from the West. Again, I wasn't around when he ran the country but I don't remember hearing too many bad things about him. So what happened to shift the balance of representation from West to the East?

Let's see now... on our track record of elected officials in the West - Devine, Getty, Lougheed, Clark (BC), Campbell (BC), and the list could go on. All elected by Western folks - would you want them represening us on a stand-alone basis? I think not. Trouble is that the cream doesn't necessarily rise to the top, nor is it often given the opportunity. (Look at the list of wannabees lining up in anticipation here in Alberta.)

Remember, the cow always thinks the grass is greener on the other side - until she gets there.

[kpb]

The discussion about the oil "running out" is completely misguided. The biggest beneficiary in North America of oil apparently running out is Alberta because of our huge oilsand reserves which are very profitable at current oil prices. At the current rate of production and given only the current known reserves, there is oil from the oilsands to last 450 years. And there seem to be more sands to be discovered.

But lets assume for a minute that oil is running out, even in Alberta. It is not here one day and gone the next--the oil supplies will dwindle over a very long time and as that happens the price will go up and up and up and all Albertans will get richer and richer. The future of this province, inside or outside Canada, is very bright. With our supplies of oil, we will be making a lot of money if world oil reserves are not running down (possible) and make more if world oil supplies are running down (shortages will drive up prices).

If the feds try to make a grab for this money, this time, you will see Albertans push to get out of confederation. No offence intended, grassfarmer, but Ottawa has consistently taken and taken from Alberta with no regard for the wishes of our citizenry. There is a strong undercurrent to get out in this province which just needs a catalyst to ignite--that catalyst could well be a new NEP. Grassfarmer, there is a long history of this abuse here that perhaps you do not feel as a newcomer.

kpb

[ivbinconned]

Cakadu my comment about Y2K is directed at the UN-reliability of "experts". I take note of the timing of your post compared to mine and the high probability that you did not "take the time". Nor I suspect, did you look at
http://www.citizenscentre.com/pdf/ccfd_special_report_2005.pdf


Dief was brought down by the eastern scum in his own party. Since then the message from eastern Canada has been clear...if they don't lead it (or control it), they will never support it.

As to your "grass is greener" analogy, NONSENSE!

History is full, fortunatly, of stories of freed people. Some in my own family. Tell them that the grass isn't greener. Have you not followed the souther U.S. border issue? Are you not aware of the millions that have flocked to the shores of North America?

What brought them here...I suspect "greener grass"!

[ivbinconned]

grassfarmer I appreciate your insight into what happened in Scotland. Many of us have never lived under any government except what we have had in Alberta, either Social Credit or Conservative and of course Conservative and Liberal in Ottawa. It is difficult to imagine our province not being a part of Canada, and I think when push comes to shove Quebecers will never separate either because cooler heads will prevail and recognize the near impossibility of any province going it on their own.
In my opinion becoming part of the US is not on the table !!!
If we could see some semblance of fairness and integrity coming from Ottawa regardless of what party is in power I think that Albertans would not feel so alienated.

[ivbinconned]

And another thing, Cakadu, you again, as in the past always when I take issue with the federal dominance in our lives like to switch the issue to the provincial leaders you detest and some how try to make the leap that I would be giving our provincial leaders a free ride. Thus negating any arguments for independence.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

However as long as all the really important powers in this country are under the unchecked power of our federal government forgive me if I focus on that here. First things first.
When the time comes that our masters are closer to those who elected them...believe me I will be there.

And if you want to blast away at the corruption with in your provincial sphere ...go for it...I support you 100%!

In fact here is some help, from another site.

Sunday Aug 28, 2005

I must say that I'm flabbergasted by all of these so-called "conservatives" in Canada at both the federal and provincial level jumping to the defense of Sir Ralph Klein over Alberta’s tax surplus.

Who cares really if the state of Ottawa, its bureaucrats, and sycophants want Alberta’s tax surplus? Is there any real difference between Captain Canada’s Paul Martin and Sir Ralph Klein’s taxing and spending ways?

Albertans need to be protected from Edmonton’s King Klein and his sycophants more than Ottawa I would argue…Surely I’m not the only free-marketer appalled over Canada’s biggest socialist spender? Can anyone name another Canadian government at either the federal or provincial level who spends more money on collective state programs on a per-capita or gross basis then Klein?

Here is the best part of the deal however: Alberta which is Canada's most wealthy province is still poorer then America's poorest state, Alabama...Not bad Albertans, you are number 51 in North America...Imagine that Alabama has higher incomes, lower taxes, and higher savings...

So the question which should be asked is, should Albertans "share" more of their earnings with King Klein of Edmonton?

Alberta should look at rolling back not only the size but also the role of the state!