Let¹s Get While the Gettins¹ Good

[grassfarmer]

kpb, about the oil - Alberta may have very large reserves at current production levels but if we have the biggest reserves left when the MiddleEast oil is gone it won't last the world market long. My concern about the oil running out is not how much money we or anyone else can make selling it in a shortage. Without oil life as we know it is over - we could not feed the world with current methods without oil. With a growing world population and finite oil reserves we must face the challenge of how to cope "post oil". It's not a matter of "if" we use the oil up rather "when" we use it.
So are we having an Alberta army, navy and airforce when you take over ivbinconned?

[madcow]

grassfarmer and farmers_son, I'm with you.Too numerous items to list them all,but I'm with ya.I don't belong to any political party,I support the guys who makes the most sense to me,(who just happen to be conservative at this time).I love Nova Scotia and Canada in that order . We should try to make this work to the benefit of all. Good to see your down to earth ,common sense here to off set the radical views.

[kpb]

madcow, I'm sorry but the people in Alberta who are considering opting out of confederation are not radicals. There are very many business people, oilmen and ranchers among other common folks who are fed up to the teeth with getting kicked by central Canada.

And of this you can be sure--if there is any attempt by the federal government to steal the oil and gas revenues of Alberta again, you may be sure that leaving Canada will not just be the talk of radicals but of most Albertans.


kpb

[kpb]

one further comment I want to make with regard to finite resources and the risk of them running out, is the need to recognize the fact that good agriculture land is at risk as well. We see the highway 2 corridor where some of the best ag land in the province is being developed at an alarming rate. Many areas with ample agricultural land still available have no or very little water supply.

[cakadu]

Emrald is right, I too don't know any other governments, provincial or federal that weren't either PC or Liberal. The reference to provincial leaders is that even out here in the West, the leadership hasn't been all that stellar over the years and who would we choose that would do a better job? Promises are easy to make, not so easy to keep as we've seen with our various levels of government over many years. There is no such thing as a sure thing and going our own separate way does not mean that things will improve and in fact could very well mean that they don't.

The biggest arguments in any relationship are over money - and in this case it is no different.

This is one instance where agreeing to disagree will be the most polite thing to do. We're all entitled to our opinions - doesn't make some of us right and others wrong nor does it make some great minds and others mediocre minds.

We take a great many things for granted in this country of ours, not the least of which is the freedom to give our opinons. Maybe, just maybe, it is time to be grateful for what we have for there are many others that can only dream of attaining what we have.

[cowman]

The time will come when we will get to vote on this issue? At that time Albertans(maybe all westerners eventually) will decide how they see it? I wonder how many might vote...60%?
If a vote was held today I suspect about 30% would vote to go...might be a bit high? Twenty years ago I doubt 10% would vote to go?
If Martin gets back in with a majority I suspect the numbers should go up a bit? If he appeases Quebec with their demands for more money(almost a neccessity if he wants to keep the Liberals in Quebec in power)where will he get the loot? Only one place available? It is interesting that now Saskatchewan will also be forced to donate?
I think in this scenario you might see the number of votes to seperate rise substantially? Perhaps over that 50%?
Without a doubt we have had some pretty poor politicians in Alberta over the last 30 years. They have not managed our assetts very well?
Never forget, that when we set up a new country, it will be the people who decide what goes into the constitution? The most important thing that can ever be put into any constitution is the RIGHT to own property? Without that right the rest are meaningless? And we do not have this right under the Canadian constitution! The western part of this country has always strongly supported the right to own property...it almost scuttled the Canadian constitution...until our sellout western premiers were bought off?
As far as the thought about an Albertan army,airforce,navy...why would we need one? Do you think the Yukon is going to attack us? Remember we would be on very good terms with the greatest military power on earth?
The fact is the Canadian army couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag despite costing untold $ billions? Never could really? In the second world war the regular army never got out of Canada! It was the citizen soldier who did the dirty work in Europe and came back to regain their lives on the farms, factories, mines, fishing boats etc.! This has always been the case throughout history.
My Dad told me once that they had been up on the line for 28 days in heavy fighting. They were down to about half strength and their uniforms were basically rotting away. There was a lull as the Germans regrouped, so the brass decided they would bring up the Van Doos for a photo Op! They marched in all spit and shine with the band a playing and the cameras awhirring, and they shot the battle weary troops hauling out. My Dads company got pulled out to the rear and got their first hot meal and shower in a month.
The Germans struck back that night and shelled the Frenchmen! The next day my Dads company had to go back up to the front. The Van Doos were pulled out! He said they were pathetic! Messed their pants and were crying like a bunch of schoolgirls! The regular army?

[ivbinconned]

Cakado: "Who would we choose?"
I choose you.

[cropduster]

Good writing Cowman!Looks kinda like you`re alone here so thought I`d join you in defending the WEST!!Alberta will become/is the financial hub of the west.Sure we don`t have the population of Van but we`re rapidly gaining.The feds(read Liberals)can`t /won`t stand for that, since it will undermine their power base.But the wealth will continue to grow ,taxes or not!In the Report even Rutherford is questioning Ralph`s leadership of Alta.So if there is a change and there will be ,my bets won`t be with provincial Libs it will be whom ever takes over Ralph`s job.And on another subject to freak out the true blue American haters here,I`ve heard from reliable sources that when the terror incident broke in jolly old England, Canada acquired 5 shiny new F-15/18`s overnite from the south.Landslide Annie was TOLD it was all part of TRAINING. Just wondering if our guys even get to look at live ammo???

[cowman]

Apparently Ontario is also not happy sending large sums of money to the feds in transfer payments? McGuinty has made it clear he wants a change in how much Ontario contributes? Who will make up that shortfall if the Liberals cut him a deal(which they clearly will)? Quebec has stated they need more money from the feds...where will that money come from?
NEP II is coming one way or the other? Might call it Kyota but the bottom line is the west is going to pay! That doesn't just include Alberta anymore but Saskatchewan and very soon BC! I find it ironic that Alberta might need to borrow $7 billion dollars to keep up the roads and Saskatchewan is sending money to Ottawa...with the roads they have!
The Americans are going to protect their interest in our oil no matter what? I believe they would be very receptive to a new country that shares a border and can fuel their nation? A country made up of provinces that have basically supported them and co-operated with them? A lot of this anti-America garbage comes from central and eastern Canada where they view the US as an enemy.
In Alberta it always was the Americans who did the investing and provided a lot of the expertise to get our industries growing. Bay Street did nothing! Ottawa did nothing...except create that boondoggle, Petro Canada! Which cost the taxpayer untold $ billions!
This country is set to fracture in two maybe three directions. It could have been avoided if we had any "statesmen"...unfortunately what we had were politicians!
The last thirty years have been devoted to appeasing Quebec so as not to upset the applecart? No country can survive when all the resources flow in one direction and one region is the "pet" at the expense of all the others? She's going to come apart, sooner or later!

[cowman]

I think it is totally foolish for AB to borrow money to complete infrastructure projects, we should be spending some of the surplus on things that will provide enhanced infrastructure for Albertans.
The report given by Shirley yesterday will only serve to have the feds taking a closer look at how they can get their hand into our piggy bank !

[ivbinconned]

Let me just tip my hat here to cowman as well here.
A friend has allowed me to plagiarize his own words that are very fitting of Cowman as well.
Cowman is a graduate of the; "Striaght-Shooting, Lets call a Spade, a Spade School"! SSLSSS

Spade school originated in Saskatchewan immediatly after the Regina Manifesto of 1933 (look it up on the web and pour yourself a stiff cup of coffee and enjoy how communism came to North America

In Saskatchewan we have had to shovel (spade) our way through so much CCF,NDP, anti-capitalist, communistic, dictatorial, socialist, undemoctatic, pro-union, anti free-enterprise bull*%&# since 1933-that it is only natural that the spade be a symbol of prairie freedom, right next to that of a gopher standing up his hind legs looking to see how much further he has to go to get to Alberta to join his family members that left before him, where measurably more freedom, prosperity and liberty reign.

Thank you cowman for tolerating me and my "passion".

[madcow]

What you smokin' cowman?, got ya a bit twisted ! You said "The Americans are going to protect their interest in our oil no matter what? I believe they would be very receptive to a new country that shares a border and can fuel their nation? A country made up of provinces that have basically supported them and co-operated with them? A lot of this anti-America garbage comes from central and eastern Canada where they view the US as an enemy.
In Alberta it always was the Americans who did the investing and provided a lot of the expertise to get our industries growing. Bay Street did nothing! Ottawa did nothing...except create that boondoggle" .What kind of suck up to the U.S. statement is that. The only thing you got right there ,is this ""The Americans are going to protect their interest in our oil no matter what?""You ' people of the oil' so to speak will get about as much consideration from them (U.S.) as the Iraqis got from Saddam.Its about control and$$$$$$$$$ Their NATIONAL SECURITY and no one else's. Remember NAFTA,softwood lumber, BSE?? & cattle trade?,border security issues ,practically any reciprocal trade agreement with them,its always heads they win, tails we lose. Give your head a tap, a good one,something's stuck. Seems to me it was you who said you would be better off as an American.People used to say here 'go west young man',,,I guess you can ,,,,,,,,,,,go south cowman !
There was a cartoon in a paper here a while back where a little boy wearing an American flag was walking along with Uncle Sam and the boy says "I understand about the war in Iraq and all, but just how did all of our oil end up under their sand anyway! ".Think about it, we aren't all in this one together, and we probably won't be pullin' for ya !

[ivbinconned]

madcow; mad for sure. Everything that you object to of cowmans post is just historical fact.

It was, American investment that triggered the oil industry in Alberta...central Canadian interest was nil.

Clearly you are under 30 years of age or just got here.

[madcow]

ivbinconned,you've been conned,the historical fact is that Alberta ,prior to 1905 was northwest territory ! They joined Canada unaware of the oil under their feet and were welcomed whole heartedly,dirt poor and all.From out here looking in it now appears that they are "too good" for the rest of us now,the rich relatives that don't admit kinship.. If they had remained the same (oil-less ,and less financially endowed ) you would all be happy to remain and benefit ,as the whole IS greater than the sum of its parts.
American investment DID finance the oil development,,,so,,,,do you trust a smiling cat ? .Is Kuwait another way to say Alberta ?? give your head a tap too. Where are you from originally anyway?
N.S and NFLD have natural gas,N.B. does not,do we want to disown them because of it ,certainly not.Confederation was a marriage, you know ,sharing,supportive,unconditional stuff !!You may also be surprised by the outflow of loyalists.
Thank You but I haven't seen 30 in quite a while,I don't live in a cave ,and I believe in a strong vision of a united Canada, Alberta ,Quebec and all.It's not perfect but I doubt you could do better,it's better to tinker with ol' Betsy to keep her running rather than start over at the reinvent the wheel stage,However I also believe that in the end, if separation happens,what's left of Canada will miss you less than the new ' what ever ' misses Canada.

[cowman]

Well everyone is entitled to their opinion and if you see a strong united Canada as something to work toward then that is your right. If I see a seperate western country and work toward that, then that is my right?
The people of the west will decide the future of the west and no one else? The feds acknowledged that right for Quebec so because we're all equal here it has to apply equally to the west? Probably Alberta will have to be the first to go. I wonder if BC and Saskatchewan will want to stay in Canada?
However why get all upset? 60% of Albertans don't believe in seperation...so why worry?
You quote all the ills of our relationship with the Americans, but you aren't so quick to acknowledge the positives? Have you looked at the trade figures lately? Do you realize without the US we would be bankrupt? Albertas future trade(as well as Sask. and BC) is pretty well all one way? South? We need to forge closer ties with our neighbors in the Pacific Northwest? Probably quite frankly like you need to do with the east coast states? That is where your future lies?