Let¹s Get While the Gettins¹ Good

[cowman]

cowman, do you think the north ( Yukon, NWT, Nunavet etc.) would be in a better position if they separated ? I think it is a total disgrace that they don't have control over their own resources.
Almost like telling them they are backwards and incapable of decision making.

[madcow]

well cowman, if I could reach I'd shake your hand.
I do realize the trade figures with the U.S. and the fact that without them we would be broke.But ,also,,, because of our almost total dependence on the U.S. trade,we are almost broke all of the time. There is so called 'free trade', but not fair trade.We are never in the driver's seat. They let us squeeze out just enough to maintain a little hope for tomorrow,but the carrot is always just out of reach.The packers do the same to the beef industry.We need more options (as a nation ) so we can have some bargaining power.The U.S. is more like our 'pimp' or our 'pusher' rather than our 'partner'.No respect here.
We do have an east coast thing going here where the Atlantic Premiers and New England Governors meet and discuss common interests.
Emerald1, I agree that the "territory" thing is a bit colonial and they should have a provincial status.I think the underlying problem for the whole country is the lack of equality among regions and the central control by the narrow minded pork barrelers.

[ivbinconned]

The one "western" Canadian industry that is in the toilet (broke)and has been for a long time and will be into the forseeable future is the grain industry.

Totaly controlled by the "federal" Canadain Wheat Board. Now that IS a "bit" colonial!

If this is the kind of protection we get from being part of Canada I don't want any part of it.

[ivbinconned]

madcow, if your suggestion of "tinkering" with old betsy was even a remote possability I would be all for it. However I am a realalist because the fact is, it will only be tinkered with if Ontario and or Quebec agree to the tinkering.

Yes in a marriage there should be sharing but the wests relationship with central canada can more accuratly be described as a domineering spouse beating up on the weaker (politicly) partner.

[ivbinconned]

A note to the rest of Canada: Hands off

By LICIA CORBELLA
Wed, August 31, 2005

There has been much talk of late about the Surplus Envy the rest of Canada (ROC) has for Alberta. Methinks Sigmund Freud might have had something interesting to say about that.

But first, some hard facts for all those whiners who are eyeing Alberta's conservatively projected $2.8-billion surplus.

In 2004, the feds collected $25.6 billion gross in personal and corporate income taxes from Albertans -- the largest per-capita haul in Canada.

According to Tracy Balash, spokesperson for Alberta Finance, Alberta receives about $16.3 billion back in federal government services and programs. That means the net contribution Albertans generously share with the ROC comes to $9.3 billion -- or $2,914 per Albertan -- by far the largest per capita transfer payments of any other province. Next in line is Ontario at $1,856 per Ontarian.

Now this next bit of info is important -- even somewhat shocking -- and shouldn't be lost on anyone -- particularly Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty, who is concerned that Ontario will soon become a "have-not" province and who described Alberta's oil wealth, as the "elephant in the room" during the recent premiers' conference in Banff.

The royalties Alberta received from the oil and gas industry -- which includes natural gas, crude oil, synthetic crude and bitumen -- for the fiscal year of 2004-2005 was $8.4 billion.

In other words, the feds take the equivalent of the entire royalties the Alberta government receives from its oil and gas industry PLUS $900 million.

So, before British Columbians go ballistic, Manitobans go mental and Ontarians ogle Alberta's oil wealth and ever-growing surplus, there's a few things the ROC needs to understand, and more importantly -- DO -- before Albertans ever agree willingly to share MORE of their hard won surplus with the jealous masses outside of our borders.

* When every single other province in Canada blows up one of its biggest and most important hospitals -- as the Alberta government (wrongly) did here in Calgary -- and closes every single other inner-city hospital in its largest city to boot, then we'll consider sharing more of our hard-earned money with you.

* When every other kid in the country spends as much time being bused to and from school as Calgary and Edmonton kids do (which is the highest in the country for urban children -- because not enough schools were built in new neighbourhoods) -- then we'll consider sending you more of our hard-earned money.

* When every other province scraps paying for kindergarten for a few years, like the Tories did (which was wrong) then we'll consider sharing even more.

* When every single MLA or MPP in every other provincial legislature in the country willingly takes a 5% wage cut -- like Premier Ralph Klein did, along with every other public sector worker -- then we'll consider sharing more of our hard-earned money with you. Indeed, while the first action Klein did as premier was to cut his salary by 5% and do away with MLA platinum pension plans, in contrast, the very first thing the B.C. Liberal government did when it was swept to power was to give itself a 5% wage INCREASE and then expect wage cuts from everyone else. For shame.

That's right folks in the ROC. It hasn't been easy. Albertans -- all of us -- put up with considerable hardships to get into this enviable financial position and most of us did it without carping.

Yes, we're going to have a multi-billion dollar surplus this year, but we also have a $7-billion infrastructure debt for all those roads schools and hospitals that never got built or maintained so we could be debt free.

But most importantly, Albertans didn't elect successive federal Liberal governments who waste and steal billions of dollars annually. The ROC does. So don't blame us.

And another thing to keep in mind. Waaay back when the Athabasca oil sands were being developed and oil sold for just a few dollars a barrel, it cost Syncrude and other companies more than $30 a barrel to make oil out of that sticky sand.

It took enormous vision and considerable risk for the Alberta government and Alberta industry leaders to continue investing in oil sands development during those money losing years. Care to share a cut of those losses? No, we didn't think so.

[madcow]

ibc said "It took enormous vision and considerable risk for the Alberta government and Alberta industry leaders to continue investing in oil sands development during those money losing years. Care to share a cut of those losses? No, we didn't think so."
Are you implying that the whole shebang cost more to create than its worth????We'd share the losses if you'll share the profits !
Read back a few comments ,it was one of you WW's who said all the investments came from your American sweethearts.
Ponder this,,, how much of the loss would have been bailed out by the feds if the whole thing hadn't panned out.You would have learned to whine like the "have not's" pretty quick.
If memory serves correct ,the breakeven cost at Syncrude was $22 per barrel.

[cakadu]

Let's stop and think about what we are shipping to the US, for a moment cowman. We ship them our oil, our electricity, our water is up for grabs and it was not protected under the free trade agreement at all.

For the sake of selling them the oil, electricity and water, we are making a mess of our own environment and leaving a footprint that will never ever be removed.

We're seeing farm being over run by pipelines i.e emrald's comment about the sinking pipeline on her property and also by drilling activity.

The slippery slope of all of our natural resource exploitation has not even begun to register in terms of the environmental damage we are doing and yet, while we complain about all the money we send to Ottawa in royalties, we can't get it out of the ground fast enough.

This type of activity cannot sustain itself and eventually it will implode and what, in the end, will we be left with? We just may not have anything to get with.

[cakadu]

My biggest concern now Linda is the fact that we are being held ransom at the gas pumps, being told that it is because of Katrina. I personally doubt that one or two refineries in the US can make that much difference . It just makes me sick to think of the devastation in the US, but somewhere it should not be used as a factor in price gauging !!!

I too am concerned about the environment but I also recognize the huge employer that industry is in Alberta. Do we restrict exploration to only what resources we as a nation can consume ? If that was the case we would have massive unemployment in this province as well as others. What suggestions do you have to improve the situation ?

[cowman]

If we shut down the oil patch we'd all be broke! Our dollar would be virtually worthless any where...and we all know how little manufactured goods we produce here.
Take a look around? How much money does the oil patch inject into the Alberta economy? How much money goes to municipal, provincial, federal governments? Check out what our export position is?
You like to drive a car? You like to heat your home? You like to wear clothes? Have any thing made of plastic?
Like to eat...where do you think chemical fertilizer comes from?
We all use petroleum based products and yep even the evil old USA does!
There is always a buyer and a seller...that is how a free market works? The price will always sort itself out...if the governments stay the hell out of it!
I wonder at the end of the day how much the government actually sucks out of a petro dollar? The basic tax is 39 cents I believe? But of that remaining 61 cents how much is further ripped off from corporate and personal tax? How much is ripped off on everything the remainder is used for? For instance the worker uses his oil based pay check to buy a pack of cigarettes, a bottle of whisky, a candy bar, throws a few bucks in the VLT or buys a lottery ticket? The guys selling all of the above also get to pay taxes on what they make!
I think you would find Alberta, and Canada, a pretty tough place to live without the oil and gas industry?
Environmental issues are important but not the most important thing in the world? It is real nice to contemplate a pristine little world but that really doesn't impress people when they can't feed their children!

[cowman]

cowman, I think that because we do not have a huge population base in Canada, particularly in the west, the impact on the environment is considerably less than in densly populated countries.

There are numerous ways that municipalities benefit from having the oil and gas industry in Alberta, one being the fact that municipal waste systems are continually upgraded with the province paying 75% of the cost in most cases. Mind you, there is a case to be made that without the industry here we would not have the population either and not need to upgrade and improve infrastruture to the extent we do.

It costs huge dollars to protect the environment. Recycling at landfills costs mega bucks. I sometimes think that the ag industry is a huge contributor to solid waste with chemical containers, plastic twine and wrap etc., most of which cannot be disposed of on the farm.

You won't find me arguing about the impact the oil and gas industry has on this province and country. All one has to do is look at the resource based municipalities and see the wealth, the state of the art recreation facilities, paved local roads, hamlet improvements etc.

[madcow]

cakadu, that's been my point all along, you/we are being ****d by our biggest customer (not necessarily our best).We are just a source to them and when empty will be discarded (not recycled )without a second thought.Ship bottled water instead of pipelines or tankers,they will pay the price if they want it,that's their attitude with products shipped into here..
emerald1, I don't know what gas costs out there ,but I paid $1.199 per liter ,regular self serve yesterday at noon and the radio reported $1.289 this morning in some of the larger centers.I think as a nation we are doing business all wrong .Should we cut the production of natural resources?, probably. Will there be massive unemployment,maybe in the short term,but we should be marketing finished products to the world.Value add here.The people who are not working in the raw product beginning of it could be working in the processing, finishing end of it.Down here we send truckloads of logs south,we mine gypsum in the valley and send railcar after railcar of it to the Boston area for pennies a ton and buy back truckloads of gypsum board,at $8 a sheet( ten years ago when I built my house) !We send (used to) beef on the hoof, iron ore from some where else, crude oil from out there.And we buy back steel, plastic products, furniture,flooring,roofing,barbed wire and staples.Everything you look at,product of USA,product of China etc. I had a plum from California yesterday and an apple from Chile today. I'm 100 miles from the Annapolis valley,they grow both here,as well as in the Niagara fruit belt, or the Okanogan Valley.Something's wrong with this picture, we have to look after ourselves first.
cowman, the environment maybe should be on the top of the priority list. If the planet becomes too damaged to live on, where do you propose we go?We are already having trouble in some places with mercury,lead,sulfur dioxide,surface ozone,the Sydney tar ponds here with PCB's, left behind by Sysco steel.One of our biggest impediments to agriculture and aquaculture here is acid rain.Great legacy for our children.Look at the mess at that gold mine in South America,watersheds polluted with (brain quit working and can't think of it)they use to wash gold from the ore.Their catch ponds weren't as water tight as they claimed,and who's going to clean it up.What long term effects will it have on the local people who benefited little from the multinational's mine and are left behind with the problem.

[greybeard]

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2178rank.html

Paste this address on your browser to see world oil reserves.
Are Canadian taxes on consumption of oil justified with these kinds of reserves?
If Alberta dropped income tax, won't they still have a surplus? Do Arabs pay income tax?

[cowman]

Well madcow, I guess its all how you look at it? Personally I believe this old world will last just as long as it is supposed to, but then that isn't exactly a popular opinion with the left leaning population?
The age of oil and gas is rapidly coming to an end. The technology is out there to replace it, but vested interests don't want that to happen? Personally I don't want it to happen as it is my bread and butter!
I think Alberta should crank up production to the max and reap the rewards...as long as it is going to the people of Alberta!
In Venuzala (a so called Communist regime) the people pay 5 cents for a liter of gasoline! That tells me if Venuzala can do it so can Alberta? Give Albertans 5 cent a liter gas...include our neighbors Saskatchewan and BC, if they care to drive here and charge the rest world oil prices...just like they charge us world prices for cars, trucks, manufacturing goods! Alberta doesn't owe Canada anything...we've paid more than we ever got.
When eastern Canada could buy oil cheaper than the Alberta price, how loyal were they? Did they chant about how we are all Canadians? No they bought it cheap from offshore and to hell with Alberta and their oil and gas industry! Luckily California saw the wisdom of buying a secure and local product and they kept us going!
You reap what you sow?

[ivbinconned]

I don't mind paying the world price for what I buy, If I would only have had the FREEDOM to always sell at the world price

What angers me is that when I was growing malt barley I was told by the "raping" Canadian Wheat Board, a Canadian Government Enity, that I should be happy with the $3.50 they were giving me. I feel sooo protected!

If I could have snuck it accross the border to those terrible Americans who would have given me $7.50 U.S. I would have of course, if caught by the feds, been facing some jail time.

[cowman]

When I was a boy my Dad had some barley that was accepted for malt. Great! He jumped through the hoops and paid the freight to Thunder Bay where it was again accepted for malt. Great! Then after paying for the offloading, elevation charges, etc. it was off to Montreal. Guess who paid the freight on the Great lakes? Yep, my Dad!
In Montreal it was declared feed! So some Frenchman got to feed his hogs on Alberta malt at half the price!
My Dad never grew another bushel of grain for the SOB Canadian Wheat Board and neither have I! I rent my grain land now to my cousin but he also refuses to grow anything that he has to sell to these SOBs! The CWB is Canada.