When is our land, not our land?

[farmers_son]

farmers_son please do not read into my comments my staunch support for anything other than regulating industries with the public good in mind.

I find it interesting that you would think that 68 sets of rules ( or no rules as the case may be because some municipalities did not require feeding operations to have a municipal permit) were better than legislation that holds all sectors of the livestock industry to a higher environmental standard than ever before. The vast majority of large and small feedlots that make up our cattle feeding industry were approved under the municipal system.

If you take time to check out the approvals on the NRCB website you will note that a SIGNIFICANT number of them are for new components to existing colonies. eg: adding a broiler barn, expanding a dairy operation etc., which will be required to be constructed to a higher standard than most of the existing facilities. Dealing with applications for mega operations ( there were two that were applied for prior to the AOPA legislation coming into effect) posed a huge problem for municipalities and resulted in some excellent municipal councillors choosing not to run again due to the stress associated with dealing with all the issues surrounding these applications. I, for one, commend the provincial government for having the guts to take this issue on by pulling all the stakeholders together to arrive at a solution to how the industry can expand in such a way as not to compromise people or the environment. It is a new process, which I am sure has had its rough spots but as a former elected offical I can certainly see it is for the best.

One thing that should be clear is that if municipalities do not want any confined feeding operations or want them only in specific areas of their municipality they have only to identify that within their municipal development plans. If you read AOPA you will see that municipalities are considered directly affected on all applications regardless of size, so the land use decisions are still at the local level.

I am confident that if you ask any MLA in this province regardless of what party they are from they will be adamant that the expansion of the livestock industry cannot be allowed to happen at the expense of the environment .

As far as the oil and gas industry is concerned it does involve a lot more issues than the livestock industry or non energy projects, and I certainly can see your points with respect to losing control over your own land.

[farmers_son]

farmers_son, I too, am very concerned with the loss of rural population. The lack of water in some areas of the province is one issue. Recently I spent a few days in the Peace region and many of the rural families rely on dugout water for personal use. A pipeline is being proposed to take water from areas that have an abundant supply and pipe it to more remote locations . Some of the rural municipalities in the peace have no town or village within their boundaries and are miles from a hospital. Keeping people in these areas is a challenge, particularly if they have an opportunity to sell off their land and relocate.

One initiative that has recently been taken by AAFRD focuses on the Rural Development aspect. A committee chaired by MLA Doug Griffths of Wainwright is involved in stakeholder meetings to better understand what is needed to revitalize rural Alberta.

Larger farming units certainly mean less people living in an area in most cases, but in a free market system people can sell their land when they choose. I often wonder why some operators feel they need to continually expand. One of my neighbours had to get to the magic number of 200 cows, he got there then BSE happened so now he is at 260 cows. He farms over 4000 acres and is 71 years old. When he isn't making hay or silaging, or calving cows he is repairing or building something. Makes no sense to me whatsoever but his kids say its what keeps him healthy and interested in life !!!!

[farmers_son]

Would those same MLA’s express similar concern that expansion of the oil and gas industry cannot be allowed to happen at the expense of the environment?

You say “but in a free market system people can sell their land when they choose.” I think the point of this thread is we do not live in a free market system. Government directly or through various agencies and boards places restrictions on the ownership of your land. Therefore the question is asked “when is our land not our land”. It is not a free market system and there is no use pretending it is. And although I understand your viewpoint I would remind you that you are arguing in favour of government regulation, in particular provincial government regulation regarding ownership and use of private land.

I tried to contact the NRCB yesterday for information regarding the role municipalities now have in matters concerning the NRCB but there was no one available to answer my questions. A problem with government agencies the Friday before a long weekend.

Doug Griffiths is doing some good work on rural issues. We will have to see if the government adopts his and Luke Oullettes recommendations.

I would not consider your neighbour with 4000 acres and 260 cows to be a large operation. When you ask why is he still farming it probably has little to do with the acres or the cows but his children who I presume are farming with him.

[cakadu]

It is very true that ag development i.e. farms getting larger does not necessarily translate into rural development for a number of reasons, not the least of which is the fact that fewer people own more of the land and those that are bought out tend to move away, hence rural decline. The gist of the report that you talk about is that there are 4 pillars to the rural economy - access to basic health care, education, commerce and recreation - all of which are tied to a person's individual ideas on what "quality of life" is for them.

The point of this thread was the fact that even though we own the land, we are not free and clear to do what we want with it and in fact in some cases i.e. power,oil and gas are left essentially powerless to have any say in what happens.

The discussion on the various viewpoints of our quasi-judicial boards has been enlightening, which has been an added bonus.

The fact remains that even though we as individual landowners are trying to do what we feel is best for the land and the environment that we can seemingly control, it can all be for naught if the "big boys" come calling.

There is that old Joni Mitchell song about paving paradise, putting up a parking lot and not knowing what you've got 'til it's gone.

[cakadu]

Linda, in some instances what we do with our land and how we run our farming operations large or small is dictated by the urban population vs government telling us what to do on our land.

The AOPA legislation for instance would be much stronger than it is if some urban centres and some health regions had their way. They see agriculture as a polluter right along with other industries. We know that rural Albertans are outnumbered by far by urbans and our rural voice in caucus is diminishing with each election and each redrawing of electoral boundaries. When the AOPA legislation was being developed all stakeholders were at the table: AAMD C; AUMA; Health Regions, Environmental Groups as well as the livestock industry. There was a lot of compromise but in the end the legislation was something that all stakeholders could live with.
I used to see cattle operators wintering their cattle on the creeks and rivers, in the spring the water would run brown. As a producer it made my blood boil, put a black eye on our entire industry and certainly gave the impression to those who weren't informed that all cattle producers polluted the creeks and rivers of the province.
I read about feedlot operators that are very pleased with themselves when they can short circuit the regulations they agreed to follow and know that if more of them do this, it will mean even more stringent rules for the industry.

The right to do what we want to on our own land is a misconception. Any development we wish to do must be in accordance with municipal land use by-laws, municipal development plans etc. I think we are all wise enough to know that we have constraints on what can happen on our land and likely have had since the beginning of time.


farmers_son, if you are interested in learing what the municipalities role is within the AOPA legislation you can find out that information in the AOPA legislation itself or by picking up a copy of the 2004 Reference Guide for AOPA at any county office.
It cites the role of municipal governments as:
Being invited to provide input into all applications within their boundaries, and to develop land use plans that identify where new and expanding confined feeding operations would not be compatible with current or future land uses. eg: municipalities can include buffer zones around hamlets, towns, villages, country residential subdivisions, park and recreational facilities where cfo's are not an appropriate land use. Any application that is inconsistent with municipal zoning will be denied by an NRCB Approval Officer.
Municipalities do not have input into technical issues on applications as per the 2004 amendments to AOPA.
Municipalities are encouraged to provide historical input into an application and when an application is filed with the NRCB it is provided to the municipality the same day. This fixes the MDS ( minimum distance separation) from the proposed facility. Once the application is complete and all information is in front of the Approval Officer so they can commence making their decision they provide all information contained in the application to the municipality for their comments. The municipality may request a road use agreement with the applicant to be part of the conditions on the approval, or they may request a road haul agreement designating what roads are appropriate for hauling silage, livestock etc. to the facility.
I am aware of numerous public information meetings held over specific CFO applications that are attended by NRCB staff to provide information on their process etc.

The changes in municipal councils over the past two elections means that there are a lot of elected officials that aren't familiar with the legislation and it is my understanding that the NRCB has representatives meeting with municipalities ongoing to ensure that a two way communication is in effect. In fact, from what I am told the NRCB is much more willing to communicate with stakeholders at a higher level than the EUB is.

[farmers_son]

I agree when you say “The right to do what we want to on our own land is a misconception” and with Cakadu “The point of this thread was the fact that even though we own the land, we are not free and clear to do what we want with it and in fact in some cases i.e. power,oil and gas are left essentially powerless to have any say in what happens. “

I would add the point I made before that the public interest is for all intents and purposes the government interest. The way it is is not the way it has to be and in fact is not the way it is for other sectors of the economy. If it is in the public’s interest to expropriate a farmers land for a pipeline for which he/she is paid a minimum token fee then why would it not be in the public interest to expropriate the oil companies gas and oil as well to ensure that the needed product reaches the public without needless expense and inconvenience. Unfortunately the answer here is because the government would not consider such a move to be in its best interest; excuse me, the public interest.

And while it is OK for the city dweller to drive stinky cars and pollute the rivers lord help any farmer who wants to build a feedlot. The feedlot is only a source of pollution because it is the minority that have feedlots. If the majority had feedlots it would not be a source of pollution. The hog barn stinks because only a few have hog barns and they hire few workers. If the hog barn hired 1000 workers it would no longer stink. Or if everyone had a hog barn it would not stink either.

It really is unfair.

[farmers_son]

odor from livestock facilities varies with management practices, air currents etc., and of course sometimes it is the 'eye of the beholder'. There was one study done with a newly constructed hog facility where neighbours were polled as to the odor on a scale of 1-10. Most of them rated the odor as high, when in fact there were no hogs as yet in the facility !!!
Minimum Distance Separation and adequate manure management are practices that mitigate the impact of odor on neighbours. I do feel that there are certain facilities that have a severe odor and of course it is not very pleasant to live close to them. You are correct when you say that urban folks don't realize that they, too, are polluters. Many of them do not realize the jobs created by spin offs from the livestock industry so of course they feel justified in complaining about the impact that industry has on their little corner of the world.

[cakadu]

Sadly, it is a case of pointing one finger outward, yet having 3 pointing back at yourself. The majority of urban folks likely don't realize that whatever runs down their storm sewers is NOT treated prior to going back into the river system. I'm not sure how much knowing that fact would stop them from doing what they do, but it may have some effect.

I don't for a moment think that we are free to do with our land whatever we want and I would agree with you that it is a misconception to think otherwise.

The other thing that I would add is that some of the decisions made by folks - whether it be urban, rurban or rural - sound good and work on paper, but in practice are a totally different story. Look at all the people that say they want the environment protected/preserved/conserved yet the number one thing that is picked up out of ditches are throw away coffee cups. You don't have to drive very far down a "rural" stretch of road to see all kinds of garbage strewn all over the place.

When a big event that attracts large crowds is over, ever looked at the amount of garbage that is thrown all over the place, left for someone else to clean up? Easy to talk the talk, not so easy (or desirable) to walk the talk.

For those of us who do try to walk the talk, that is not such an easy thing to do either.

[cakadu]

one of the largest costs to municipalities both rural and urban is solid waste disposal. In our county we have transfer stations in close proximity to hamlets where people take their garbage. Many folks drop by these stations on a regular basis checking to see what is in the 'help yourself' corner. Old lawn chairs, barbeques, kids toys etc. are left there daily and are usually gone within hours according to the lady that looks after the facility.
Now we have been advised that nothing but household garbage may be put into the bins or left on site. This means that any farmer that wants to dispose of baler twine must haul it to the landfill, spend half an hour waiting in line and put the bags of twine in the area that is designated for such items.

For many farmers in this area it means over an hours drive one way so I am willing to bet that a lot of twine will be either burned or buried on farms or left piled up somewhere ! There is a no plastic burning clause in our fire bylaw here.

As our population grows and more disposable items are available it becomes more of a problem. The ag industry isn't totally blameless either, plastic silage bags are a huge waste, and often near the farms of those that use the darn things pieces of these bags are found in ditches and on neighbouring property.

In urban centres grass clippings are hauled to the landfill when they could be easily used as compost at home.

Its a major issue and one that is only going to get worse.

[cowman]

Actually baler twine burns very well, gives off a lot of heat so what is the problem? Tired of paying $1/day to keep a cattle waterer from freezing up?
Everyday in Alberta millions of cubic feet of gas are flared off? Now that is okay...but it is some kind of big crime to burn a bit of baler twine? Give me a break!
Landfills in this country are a scandal! In Germany the traditional landfill is a thing of the past. Everything is either recycled or incinerated to provide energy. It's going to happen here eventually when people finally have to pay the full price to get rid of their garbage?
In reality paper and cardboard products in the ditch is a good thing? It breaks down into organic matter rather than go to a landfill and take up space! The only one it bothers is the people who spend their time looking in the ditch!

[cowman]

Many municipalities have a no plastic burning clause in their fire by-law cowman. If you consider what would happen if not only the rural folks but those within hamlets decided to burn plastic milk containers, and other plastic materials on a contual basis it could have a negative effect on air quality. Personally, I see no problem with farmers burning twine and other plastic materials as long as its done in a safe manner, but if I decide to do it here I am acting outside our municipalities bylaws and could get fined.

[cowman]

cowman, I have to add further comments. How would you like to live along a busy roadway where people threw their paper and other garbage into the ditch ? Bet your attitude would change if the paper were blowing into your yard !!
Our local landfill authority is having all sorts of problems coming to agreements between the rural and urban municipality on expansion, costs of operating transfer stations in the rural area etc. This landfill has cost millions, adding new lands and opening new cells etc. If the county in their wisdom decides to opt out of the agreement it will leave rural property owners and businesses paying a lot more for garbage disposal. At this time garbage is hauled over 100 miles into our landfill as a money maker when in fact it has only served to fill up the darn place and cause increased tipping fees for all users in order to develop further capacity.

I'm sorry don't understand your comment about being tired of paying $1 per day to heat the stock waterer. Please explain what burning twine has to do with that ?