America the Just

[silverback]

f_s, "none of the canadian parties are perfect".

Please stop trying to convince us that the conservatives are the same party that got kicked out 13 years ago because of free trade, helicopters, and the GST. The conservative party as it exists now has never been in power and it's policies are different, as are it's members.

And while you liberals are at it, keep glossing over the overindulgence the Liberals have enjoyed on our taxdollars for the past 12.

[cowman]

We should remember that all Americans aren't neo cons(whatever that means)? A good percentage of them thought it was dumb to go to war with Iraq, despite the drivel you get on CNN?
Personally I'm am apalled by the hostage taking incident! These people, good people, believing they were doing was right are now going to die...for what? I can only feel empathy for their families.
Bush screwed up...not America. He is so darned bull headed he just can't see the forest for the trees! Has he ever, even once admitted he was wrong...on anything?

[FarmRanger]

Hehe cowman, have you ever known a politician to admit to making a mistake? Except maybe Svend, who pretty well had no choice, as he was caught red-handed on surveillance tape stealing the $50K ring. From what I can tell, neo-con is a derogatory term used to imply some sinister affiliation.

I also hope those hostages get out unharmed. They were over there trying to make peace, you’d think the hostage takers would let them go. Mindless hate has definitely warped their judgment, how do you deal with people like that? They terrorize the local population as well, but can’t extort as much out of foreign governments by kidnapping locals.

Hey Wilagro, would you consider Bombardier to be a special interest group? They sure seem to get a lot of pandering? I don’t think we would appear very innocent in comparison of national sport of pandering (2nd only to hockey).

And farmers_son, I wasn’t talking about all political parties. It was specifically the Liberal party that had their own BSE BS policy. And it came back to haunt us. If a Conservative government had pulled that boneheaded move, I’m guessing it wouldn’t have ever been forgotten. I do find it a little funny that Harper was once a Liberal, shows there might be hope for you yet. Even Darth Vader eventually left the dark side. ;-)

I think we'd have to go back at least 12 years in Canadian politics to see much in the way of greatness displays.

[Horse]

It sure seems funy to me that a liberal is just plain old bad but a conserative is good
When I look back over the yrs they have all been good and bad, but as ivbeenconed wants to put anyone down he just calls them a liberal and everyone nods?
It is a sin that we have a liberal gov fedrly for 13 yr but it is a good thing we have a tory gov provincialy for 40 yr go figure .
I dont think very many of you have looked at the big picture all ypou can see is your tunnel vision ither lib or tory or nd, well I think any one of them could have good ideas and any one could form a good govmt given a chance. To bad it gets down to name calling wouldnt it be nice if people got credit for thier good ideas and for thier mistakes.
Ralph has made a carrier of picking fights with the feds and he is probably woried that if the torys win there goes his gig.

[ivbinconned]

Horse...its liberals that put farmers in jail for selling their own wheat. They then like to say they are open minded and tolerant...ya right.

As for the comments here about George Bush, lets not forget that HE didn't invade Iraq without the support of prominate Democrate's! Also, they were motivated by the fact that Sadam had slaughtered 200,000 Kurds, etc, etc, etc! I think if he felt sorry, and the democrate's felt sorry,and said so, for taking out this dictater who, incidently, never missed a chance to give the world the impression that he HAD WDM's...he would appoligize.

[cowman]

Well its funny Sadam was the greatest thing since pizza before he invaded Kuwait? He was just wonderful while he was gassing the Kurds? He was Americas man against the Iranians! And now he is evil?
The best thing that could happen is if they let Sadam go free and got every American out of that country? Old Sadam would whip those animals back into shape pretty fast!

[FarmRanger]

Let Sadam out? Yikes!
He'd butcher 10 times as many as he did before, because nobody would have the stomach to take him out again. He could parade nukes down the main street of Bagdad, and what would we do about it? Al Qaida terrorists (who are already there) would have a nice new base of operations, and would probably be running the country a month after any military pullout. Every other tinpot dictator in the world would take it as nod to do whatever nastiness they could dream up. Who would stop them, the United Nations? Please…

Something like 72% of Iraqis turned out to vote in their election last January. We get 2 inches of snow and we’d be lucky to get half that, and Canadians don’t have to worry about some maniac blowing themselves up at the polling station.

Like it or not, someone has to keep peace there until the Iraqis can maintain it on their own. I don’t think anyone would like the alternative, despite all the political rhetoric we hear.

[ivbinconned]

Since when do two wrongs make a right???

[wilagro]

FarmRanger: You bet I consider Bombardier a 'specisl interest group'. The frickin' Liberals have pandered to that corporation for years.
I will not defend the liberals or the 'old conservatives' for their misdeeds or corruption but I will defend Canada against attacks from the likes of David Frum. We have a different system here and if he doesn't like it...tough shit. He chose to bail out of Canada, and now he snipes at Canada every chance that he gets. The worst part is, he gets PAID for those articles that are printed in canadian newspapers...many are right-wing in their outlook.

David Frum is a tool...and a big one.

[ivbinconned]

wilagro I ask you again. Give us some constructive critisisim of Frums artical.

Just one point even, from IT, that you take issue with.

Come on...be brave, don't hide behind your sanctimonious, condisending retoric. Its un-becoming of a fine, tolerant, fair minded freedom loving "Canadain"!

With every word you write you confirm Frums argument. In our rush to be "different" we have become less free!

[FarmRanger]

Wilagro, if I thought Frum’s attacks were against all Canadians, I’d agree with you. His pointing out problems within our system of government will hopefully give rise to solutions. Spinning the facts, and shutting down ideas, because we don’t like the people who make them, is something we’ve seen too much of, and leads to worse problems. Can’t we discuss problems and solutions based on their merits?

You say he’s right wing like that’s a bad thing?! I happen to agree that some of the problems Frum listed are real and growing, and people on this forum would be happy to discuss any errors, or solutions you might have to offer?

[cowman]

Well first of all Sadam never had any nukes? And apparently he never had any weapons of mass destruction...just like the UN inspectors said? Again and again?
Sadam never tolerated Islamic extremists. He was a marxist who didn't want anything to do with religious fanatics.
He was a ruthless dictator and strongman who kept a diverse nation under his thumb? Maybe that is the only way possible in some of these countries? Yugoslavia might be a good example of what can happen to a country when the strong dictator(Tito) isn't around?
America has a tiger by the tail and can't let go and for what? Sadam did not pose any threat to the region after the Gulf war! Instead the USA has unified every crackpot terrorist in the world against them and as the bodies of American soldiers pile up they become even bolder? I suspect in the end the USA will be forced to cut and run like a dog with his tail between his legs? Vietnam all over again?

[dannytoro]

.....Well, I'll wade in again. Myself being a dual citizen of Canada and the USA, I'd have to say both countries have things they perform better at. For instance, Canada's education system is light years ahead of the USA. Over here Education has been in decline for over twenty years. Business of course is the USA cornerstone, our low tax base and over worked citizens do not ever seem to know what the "Experts" are talking about. Doom and Gloom is all they've said for as long as Dubya has been in office, yet every quarter seems a bit better then the last. The old git is going to look like a wizard after eight years, especially given the Dot.com bust and 9-11 , I have to admit that even though I've never voted for him. As far as governance overall, it seems like a worldwide malaise is everywhere. Coinfidence in government is not very high anywhere. Trade development, wow the Canadians are way out in front there, I can't wait to get back to Canada and try their great expertise to help my ideas. Nothing in the states is close. Taxes, Canada's taxes are way too high, or just high given some rural circumstances.Military? No question there, everyone knows what the US has. Canada is defaulting on NATO commitments they are so underfunded, for shame. Tolerance and social standing? Canada all the way. Enviroment? Canada tops again. Transport? America beats us like an un-wanted step child........Oh enough blather-lol

[cowman]

I usually get down to the States a couple of times a year if possible. Usually just to Montana as it is about a six hour drive to Great Falls.
I really enjoy the US and the way they do business! The people there have a very businesslike attitude. I don't think they are much different than Alberta in this regard?
Contrast that to Sakatchewan? I was astounded by the amount of "government businesses" in Saskatchewan and how when five o'clock rolls around everything shuts down! Quite an eye opener!
The roads in Montana can be atrocious! Fortunately the road to Great Falls is a very good highway...paid for by the Alberta government! Protectionist forces tried to limit access to Albertan products, citing truck size not measuring up to the road standards, so the Alberta government just said to hell with that and built a proper road!
Sort of took the wind out of their sails?

[ivbinconned]

Well cowman I am surprized. I doubt that YOU would look to the UN to back up ANYTHING or ANY other opinions you might have on ANY other subject. But when they back up your opinion about George Bush...wa-la they have credability!!

The UN never saw a dictator they didn't like. They where corrupt right to the top in the OIL-FOR-FOOD program with connections to the highest office in our country. Thus we are NOT involved in Iraq...BUT ARE elsewhere???

The US is invasion brought to an end this scam that the French government and its Canadian connections so enjoyed. It was not some GRAND PRINCIPLE that kept us out.

Go ahead and dislike Bush if you will but don't back up your bias by citing the UN.

That dog won't hunt.