surface leases

[silverback]

I know these guys will argue high and low that there is no devaluation, but they never want to talk about future development or subdivision potential. It sure looks like they are trying to ram as much in as fast as possible to get ahead of the development. What are the setback distances from these lines?? How close could you build a house? Surely that affects the value of the land.

[cakadu]

As far as I know silverback, the setback they are asking for in the case of this new Genesse to Lochend line is a 60 meter right of way. It is a 500 kV line so that must be the reason for the greater setback. I believe you've hit the nail on the head - there is no devaluing so long as the current owner holds the title to the land. Try and sell it or have it developed in the future and that is where the problems arise.

For us, a 60 meter setback, with nothing higher than 3.5 meters underneath of it, will ruin the natural area that we have on the east end of our quarter. It is one of, if not the only, wildlife corrirdor between two rivers in this area and it is a conduit for all 160 miles of drainage ditch that is dug out here every year. We have the added worry that with all this water run off that has been occuring since 1912, that we are in dire need of water and recharge out here, the flooding of 2005 notwithstanding.

Other major concerns are storm water management, erosion potential and the value of natural capital.

Emrald, others have suggested it go out further east - so it can tie into Sheerness etc. and have it impact far less people and development. The big thing is that they know that no matter where they put it, there will be opposition.

A point of clarification f_s, quite often arbitrators are lawyers and/or retired judges but not all are. Anyone can take training to be an aribitrator or mediator/negotiator through various Alternative Dispute Resolution training facilities. Here in Alberta it is the Alberta Arbitration and Mediation Society. You are quite right about going the arbitration route. You have to be willing to abide by the ruling given by the arbitrating panel - that decision is final and binding with no recourse.

[silverback]

I know these guys will argue high and low that there is no devaluation, but they never want to talk about future development or subdivision potential. It sure looks like they are trying to ram as much in as fast as possible to get ahead of the development. What are the setback distances from these lines?? How close could you build a house? Surely that affects the value of the land.

[farmers_son]

Cakadu: exactly so with the arbitration. I see the arbitration word being used to describe the EUB and SRB process but once you sign a lease arbitration becomes something else altogether.

You can argue decreased land values and you would be right. However the reality is that the landowners along the line will determine the value of the right of way because most will sign, in effect creating a market value for right of ways.

The land agents the power line companies use are particularly skilled and will use a combination of incentives, threats, coercion, unkept promises as well as the old standby: sign for what we are offering and if someone else gets more we will pay you the difference without the hassle of fighting our offer.

The real cost of having a powerline across your property is never determined. The landowners themselves decide what the line is worth and I would expect that 100% of the time they sign for less than they should.

[farmers_son]

If the proposed line were planned to cross my property I would be getting an current 'market' assessment of my home and three acre site, then ask the assessor to factor in what that assessment would decrease with the power line adjacent.
Linda if there area wildlife corridors in jeopardy, that may be the catalyst for changing the location. You have raised many valid points, and certainly if you have a group of people advocating to have the line moved it may carry weight.
Many years ago a dam was proposed on the Pembina River and people in the community caused such an uproar that the dam was never built. Same for the Glacier Power proposal near Peace River. The town of Peace River made enough pionts at the joint EUB/NRCB hearings that the project was denied. If groups opposed to the power line all band together and have valid reasons for their opposition it will get some attention.

[cakadu]

IF we could all band together with common concerns that would be great emrald. From what I have seen and heard thus far (bearing in mind the spin the media puts on things) many in opposition to the line are standing up and just saying no they don't want it in my backyard. That is playing right into the power companies hands and opens the door for the type of tactics that f_s refers to. Divide and conquer is generally the rule of the big guys, so sticking together with valid and logical points is the best way to approach this, from my own perspective.

I very much want proof that our land values will not be adversely affected by this development happening.

What would be very interesting emrald is to see if there were any benchmarks in terms of wildlife disruption etc. done when the line originally went through for the *****on Dam. I would be willing to be that 20 odd years ago when the dam was built, things like that were not taken too much into consideration. Still, if there were some proof to show how much the wildlife and natural capital was affected, it might be something that could be used to bolster the opposition's case.

Something to look into to be sure. I'm sure organizations like the Federation of Alberta Naturalists would have some information because they were around when the dam was originally built. Come to think of it, some of that history may just come in handy when they want to start developing around the reservoir, also known as Glennifer Lake.

[cowman]

I have no doubt in my mind I will get these conditions I want. I guess I've been around the block enough that I know how the system works?
You know there's the "way the law says it is" and then there is the real world? I've been paid more money($300 acre more) on a pipeline than anyone else got. It wasn't reflected in the "land price" but as an extra "consulting fee"! The landman isn't stupid, he knows how litigation can slow things down and if he has to give you a few extra bucks and you can give him a creative solution, he'll be happy to oblige? I also got a $500 "advance" to let them survey this particular lease....if they drill the hole the money comes off the surface lease, if they don't I keep the $500...not at all a requirement by law, but simple if they don't want to get a court order, delivered by a mountie before they enter the land?
I would actually prefer not to have any more coalbed wells so have no problem making it tough on this company. In fact I hear rumors that this particular company is about to skip town, as they screwed the company they were subleasing from! Tuck their tails between their legs and run back to the USA? Good riddance...and I'll enjoy their $500!

[cowman]

Linda, the Three Sisters Project in Canmore is a prime example of how wildlife corridors are protected.
The Nature Conservancy of Canada may be of some help with wildlife issues.
It is unfortunate that folks don't form a group as more voices certainly will get more attention particularly if they are all singing from the same songsheet.
Cowman, the compensation you have received is certainly great in your pocket and hats off to you, however, it points out how companies will take advantage of those who are new to or uninformed as to how they can use the system to their advantage. I think there should be transparency and level playing fields for all who receive surface lease compensation. It certainly does not bode well for a good neighbour policy of any company that will pay more to landowners because they can match wits with the landmen !!!

[silverback]

Cowman,
you wouldn't be referring to a company with 3 letters making up their name would you? If that's true, it is very interesting.

[cowman]

silverback: They are no longer paying the royalty checks. The checks are now coming from Petrofund. In addition Encana is now drilling wells on land that Petrofund has tied up...land that was supposed to be sub-leased to MGV. Without a doubt they had a horrible drilling season and never got half their work done?
Emerald: If you want transparency then you should be a member of your local surface rights group? I send in all my information. The extra I got for the pipeline was a "consulting fee" the survey entry $500 recorded as a "goodwill gesture". If anyone in the surface rights group wants the info...it is there. I never did anything that hasn't been done before, in fact I learned about both of these tricks from a neighbor who is notoriously tough to deal with. The main thing here is being able to share information...something farmers seem to have a real problem with? Want to keep their financial dealings a big secret or something! And so the oil companies pick them off at their leasure?

[cowman]

cowman our family has been members of the local surface rights group since the 1970's.

[sagewood]

Interesting information. I have managed to keep the CBM wells off my home section by insisting on complete fencing, trees to soften the industrial look, no structures, removal of the pipeline when the wells are finished, no flaring, dust control, weed control---the list goes on. So far I have been told that my project 'is on hold'. I can only hope it stays that way for a long time. I too, like all in agriculture, could use the money, however, I cannot sell my soul to the devil for what they consider fair payment. Once they get your signature, and you cash the cheque, you are pretty much on an up hill battle to make them keep to their conditions. With the brain-dead people they are hiring lately (i.e. they can walk and chew gum at the same time), it is a full-time job just to ride herd on them and make them adhere to their conditions. Mostly the field people say they knew nothing of the conditions and because they are in a hurry to finish their job and get back to town, they will take every short cut in the book.

Well enough of my rant for the day--for those who need it, Norma Lafonte, (403) 934 2393 or nlafonte@aol.com. She works with the Wheatland Surface Rights Action Group c/o Box 26, Site 14, R.R. 1 Strathmore, Ab. T1P 1J6. That is the last information I had for her. Norma proudly states that she has never worked for an oil company in her life. Those folks around Strathmore have had their fill of companies like Husky and Encana, so an attendance at one of their meetings is very enlightening.

Funny you say MGV is a goner--I predicted that Encana would work like a fiend in this area (east of Airdrie to Drumheller) to build up this field and then it would be sold--when I suggested this in front of one of their landmen--silence was the only sound to be heard--they are not good with the bluff. They have very successfully used the divide and conquer statedgy in this area and farmers have been sticking out their eager little hands the minute the landmen drive on their place--I believe my land is marked with a large, red flag!

And yes, Jim Fisher did retire, thus we do not get those in-depth interviews that he used to do which helped a lot of us know what was new and happening on the ag. scene.

All the best for 2006, and keep fighting the good fight..