Minority, how can it work?

[cakadu]

"Anyone who stood by or accepted and made excuses for the crap the Liberals were pulling on us needs a slap upside the head."

What should we have done, silverback, beyond voicing our displeasure with our vote? Who is to say that we stood by and took it and/or accepted it. Many were upset by the antics of the last 12 years and our recourse was through our democratic right to vote. It doesn't mean that we stood by or accepted it. I'm curious to know what you think we could have done.

[silverback]

Cakadu,

If you did not support the self serving liberals, then my comments are not anything you need to worry about. I am directing my comments at those that have said many times over the last few years that you can't blame all the liberals for the wrongdoings of a few.

Personally, I take great offence to anyone who would steal or waste the money I am required to send in to them. It does not matter to me if it was the leader of the party or the lowest appointee of them, they all are tainted by the action of a few.

And before anyone types it, yes I will say the same thing if the conservatives waste my money in the same way.

[cakadu]

I'm with you on that one silverback. What I find absolutely astounding is that there must have been more than just a few people - read that civil servants - who knew what was going on or at the very least had some suspicions. Out of all those people, not one had the resolve to say something?

For me personally if I saw anything like that I would have to say something to someone. If you know of something and remain silent, you're just as guilty as the person committing the wrongdoing - at least in my books you are.

The corollary of that is unless someone says something along the way, it remains pretty hard to convict person or persons unknown.

[cowman]

Well the whistleblower guy in Ottawa tried to point out what was going on and look what happened to him? Hopefully the new accountability thing will let civil servants speak up?
I don't know if this is just confined to the federal government? Don't know about provincial politics but it happens in municipal government? I have a "confidant" in the local county and he tells me when any employee is hired he has to sign an agreement not to reveal any screwups or "insider" info! If the employee talks...he can be fired!
However we all know that is sort of a joke? It is not too hard to get the "scoop" on tenders, proposed projects, etc. if you know the right people? Might not be right but thats how it works.

[cakadu]

Cowman, that is a simplistic view of a confidentiality agreement as it covers much more than that. It also covers things like using information you find in the course of your employ for your own gain, proprietary information that is the property of the employer, or as a contractor the findings that you glean during the course of your contract are the property of whomever you are doing the work for. Breach of the confidentiality agreement can result in dismissal. An example would be if you were working for a municipality and as an employee you knew that they were going to annex some land in a certain place and you went out and bought that land prior to it being annexed. As a ratepayer in the municipality would you be happy that this employee went out and bought land knowing that they were going to make a bundle once it was annexed?

As a rule government matters and dealings are public record as they should be.

Your insider friend would have had a choice about signing the agreement - not signing it would have meant they didn't get the job, but the choice would still have been theirs to make.

[cowman]

Well maybe that is why so many councillors and former councillors seem to have made so much money in the real estate market? Funny how so many of them got in on the developement scheme...before they started pushing this latest land use thing? Amazing how the councillor in one division got all those subdivisions on prime agricultural land?
Do you ever wonder why one guy gets a subdivision, while another doesn't? It really has little to do with rules. I think you might be looking through rose colored glasses?
As I've said many times: There is the way it is supposed to be....and then there is the real world? It sometimes isn't pretty.

[cowman]

Linda: Just remembered this gem! Do you ever wonder why your municipality is buying gravel from a private contractor at Eckville and trucking it east and south of Innisfail to stock pile...as pit run!
Do you also ever wonder why they let an option go on 3/4 of land of gravel west of Innisfail, with proven reserves that would have lasted for dozens of years? Since giving up those reserves a private contractor has bought them up? Check out who bought them. Check out who his good friend is...you just might find out it is a councillor...who actively sought the giving up of those reserves?
Ask how come rebuilding RR 242 was so high over budget? You just might find that the contract was done on an hourly basis...with absolutely no supervision! The cats never got out of bull low. Ask where the money comes from to cover all these super high costs...you just might find it comes from the road maitenance budget?

[cowman]

sounds like the citizens of your county should petition the Minister of Municipal Affairs to have a corporate and governance review done of all county operations.
Councillors can get in big trouble if they are giving out information that benefits one contractor over another.

[cakadu]

Cowman, I know some of what you're speaking of, but not all of it. If all of that has happened (and who knows what else) then how on earth can anyone say that we have been well served as ratepayers of the county, by our various councils?

It is amusing to see how those who have gotten their subdivisions now see the wisdom and foresight of preserving agricultural land!?!?!?

The policy that we have in this county for preserving agricultural land isn't working too well for us, given the drilling activity, the power lines, the subdivisons etc.

[cakadu]

Linda are you going to attend the Action for Agriculture AGM ? If so are you going to pose some questions to the group from Red Deer ?

Smart Growth Planning has been a concept adopted by many communities in the US, and of course some communities in Alberta are trying to implement that same philosophy in their land use planning.
I can tell you from experience that it trying to create a balanced approach to municipal planning is no easy task and has caused many elected officials great stress.
I have always advocated that if the type of agriculture in any given area involves livestock operations of a significant size then that area should be left zoned agriculture to allow for expansion of existing operations if economics dictate that to be necessary.
Any land close to a city, town, village of hamlet or recreation area is prime for eventual country residential development and of course that means that the land is more valuable.
If a farmer decides he wants to subdivide his entire farm miles fron any urban centre I wonder if he is really a farmer or farming subdivisions !!!!


Cowman I can't wait for your response !!

[cakadu]

I wish I could attend emrald, but I don't think I'll be able to make it work, despite being a member. Trust me, I have asked questions of the planners.

What I would like to see is how they plan on turning Glennifer Lake into more of a hamlet type scenario when the ASP does not allow for that kind of thing. In addition, it is my understanding that when the dam went in and the intial sales took place for the recreational area, that one of the conditions sought and won was that there would be no permanent residents there. I know that they have relaxed that somewhat but there was never meant to be any kind of real development. Many of the groups that were working on it back then fought hard to get that put in there. How will they be able to change that now?

I will keep maintaining that if the only way we can see value in recreational and/or natural areas is to develop them then we have well and truly missed the boat.

[cakadu]

Area Structure Plans are easily amended by having first reading, holding a public hearing,then giving the plan second and third reading and it becomes a County By-Law.

Are you still on the Agricultural Service Board of Red Deer County, and if so are you attending the ASB Convention in Edmonton ? I will be there on Tuesday afternoon and Wednesday until around 2:00.

[cowman]

Emerald: I think the RD county plan is this "Smart Growth" deal? They sent two councillors to the states to some conference and they came back among the "converted and faithful"! Of course they already had subdivided their land...so the conversion might have been a little suspect?
The geological facts of Red Deer county is that running the length of the county is the "divide" which is a break of rough hills where the west is quite a bit lower in sea level from the east.
This whole "divide" is not the best farmland but a beautiful place for residential developement...it is the sensible place to build and eventually it will be developed...one way or the other?
Instead the "Smart Growth" plan calls for expansion and creation of hamlets and subdivisions around Red Deer on some of the best farm land in the province...well so much for saving good farmland!
If you are unlucky enough to be considered "Primary Agriculture" then no matter what, you are shut out of the gravy train, even though your land couldn't support a billygoat but would make a beautiful subdivision!
The land east of the divide is poorer soil and drier than west of the divide. This area is basically dying. Fewer people living there every year...and yet totally feasible to commute...but once again no developement!
Instead the "smart growth plan" is to cluster acreages and industry around Red Deer and close to highway #2. Is that smart?
The pressure to develope the area around Glennifer Lake is pretty powerful? The "money men" see a goldmine and I doubt they will be denied for long? I have often found high sounding plans and rules written in stone usually get the old heave ho when there is a dollar in sight? Don't forget the "plan" today can be ancient history real fast? Like one election away or one visionary planner sent packing?
Personally I am sort of ambivalent about the whole thing. I live basically right on the divide. Have land that is part of the divide but actually live just west of it. Without a doubt I don't like the fact that I have been deemed "primary agriculture" but have no doubt that will change someday. At my age and in my situation I don't really care if I make the big bucks, in fact I kind of enjoy not having to deal with a lot of developement pressure? But the fact is this: Everything in this world has a price and money makes the world go around? Its coming my way one way or the other and I might as well make the best of it? Although hopefully not in my lifetime!

[cowman]

In my area there are a couple of small feedlots and mainly cattle operations plus a few 'first parcel out' sites.
Neighbours tried to take a parcel out across from a feedlot, where their son had built a shop and also put an apartment over it which was against the rules within the land use by-law. The subdivision application was denied as it would have stifled any future growth of the feedlot which had been in existance for years with a permit.
Now the neighbour has decided that they want to apply for three subdivisions a little further away from the feedlot, and I happen to be an adjacent landowner.
I am going to oppose the application for the following reason:

This land is over ten miles from town, in the midst of agricultural lands where the main commodity is cattle. Cattle operations when they get large enough just do not mix with a bunch of country residential parcels across the road. I like the peace and quiet of my rural setting, and more important than that I like the fact that my neighbours are all in the cattle business, we understand that cows bawl, people haul silage, hay and manure and sometimes drive their cattle down the road.
We don't phone and complain to each other about generally accepted farming practices and we don't call the county by-law officer when somebody spreads manure or combines half the night...but just mix country residential and livestock and watch the fun begin.

I had a go round with the local Development Officer a year ago ( he has since been fired ), because he got pretty snarly with me when I asked him where the livestock operations were expected to be able to exist if they were surrounded by acreages 10-12 miles from town. He was adamant that there were no livestock operations of a significant size anywhere in my area of the county. Guess he figured that an operation with 1200 cow/calf pairs plus a 2500 head feedlot was just a hobby farm !!!

During my years as a municipal councillor I got my share of phone calls from constituents complaining because the neighbour was hauling cattle at midnight and making noise, or hauling manure and making ruts in THEIR road or heaven forbid was out on a tractor in the middle of the night keeping them awake...so I have a bit of experience to back up my position on this .

[cakadu]

No, emrald, I'm not on the ASB any longer and I haven't been considered as a candidate for much after my run for councillor. Now it could be that the two are not connected, but..... It would have been nice to meet you there.

Cowman, you may be right about the development thing and if this proposed power line goes through, then any chance or choice around developing the land will go right out the window. As of right now, we don't want to develop anything and we would like to keep the land in it's natural state. Having said that though there may come a day when we have to sell for any number of reasons - the first of which is we're not getting any younger - and it would be nice to have some options.

We like living out here and we have more parcels of land out here because of subdivision. While the landowner was a councillor he got a lot of subdividing for the 5 quarters of land the family owned. One quarter was able to be divided into two 80-acre parcels, one was turned into a 4, 76 and and 80 acre parcels, and out of the home quarter a 3 acre parcel was taken out. In fact, there were so many subdivisions granted that when we bought the home quarter there was a Caveat on it that if he went for any more subdivisions, he would have to give the most aethetically pleasing part of the quarter to the county.

Now we have plenty of acreage neighbors, not the least of which is one of the offspring of the original owner who lives in Calgary and lets any amount of drilling activity go on over there because they don't have to deal with any of the noise, inconvience, DUST etc. We have some of the opposite problems that you do emrald - city folk who came out to the country for the good life and wouldn't have a clue on how to burn garbage if their lives depended on it. Fire ban - we'll burn garbage. 70 km/h wind - we'll burn garbage. Plastic, no problem we'll burn it. Kids using the roads as speedways for their quads and motorbikes, no idea of how many animals should be on a 4-acre parcel and the list goes on.