Health Care System

[Horse]

Cowman seeing as you know what Ralph is saying why dont you tell us I sure cant make heads or tails of the [ third way ].
Insurance is insurance do you not think they are going to profit by cherry picking , they want a public system in place so when you get cancer or alshimers or heart problems they can dump you back to the public system the same as with auto insurance.
Sorry I just dont believe in the tooth fairy, it will be american companys and as with electrical deregulation they wont obey our laws because they are American.

[Horse]

What I think Ralph is saying is this Govmt is uncapable of running the health care system so mabey they should step aside and give some one else a chance they surly couldnt run it any worse.

[cakadu]

Or could it be cowman that the media can do the scaremongering for the third way and then when it does actually get announced, people will look at it and say it isn't so bad?

It is a slippery slope and we need to be sure we absolutely understand what it is we are getting into, or not getting into as the case may be.

The difference between the proposed changes to health care (whatever they are because we haven't been informed of those yet) and the privatization of licensing, road works and alcohol is that the latter do not have any way to get into the public purse or at least none that I am aware of. They function on their own as businesses and they succeed or fail by what they do.

So far they have not explained how it won't set up a two-tiered, have vs. have not system. Maybe there are things that we can primarly agree on, but how do we know at this point?

For now, I will maintain that if a doctor wants to work in the private system, then they cannot and should not be allowed into the public system.

[cakadu]

Health care should never be a two tier system. I too have seen frail elderly patients lying on gurneys, and if they don't have family there that will yell their heads off to get them looked after and into a proper bed they will like there in que like so many cattle in a chute !!!

The health care system is broken due to abuse, for one thing and the regionalization of hospital boards has not worked, the beaurocracy is out of control.

[cowman]

Well I don't think Ralph is proposing two tier health care...although we already have that...Go to the US?
I think the idea is to contract with private clinics for services? How is this any different from what we have today...within the public system? How is that any different than LedCor plowing the highways? The doctor takes out your gall bladder or sets a bone...he is paid a set fee? The only difference is this: For certain procedures you don't need a multi million dollar hospital...a clinic will do just fine? The hip and knee clinics show that? Faster and cheaper than the public system?
We already have this system in place...its called an abortion mill? Woman drops in, gets her baby killed, goes home, doctor senda Alberta Health a bill and they pay it? It works especially well as few real doctors and nurses want to be involved in this dirty business? So it would be a classic example of how a private clinic would work?
Bottom line cut waiting times and get it done cheaper than the public system!
And maybe at the end of the day we could change some rules so we don't have doctors doing certain procedures(or getting paid for them) that other people could do? For instance taking off a cast or taking out stitches? In fact usually a nurse does those things...but the doctor sends in a bill for it? Who knows...maybe my vet would sew you up for about one quarter what a doctor charges...and you wouldn't have to sit in the waiting room for 2 hours bleeding all over the floor!
There are a lot of ways you could reform healthcare? Personally I think a $2000 deductible would be the way to go? You pay the first $2000...anything after that the government picks up the tab? Would eliminate about 90% of the social visits that clog up the system! The other idea would be a user fee everytime you feel the urge to have a visit? Say $20? That also would clean up a lot of the BS? And of course the poor would be excempt...just like they are now with premiums.
This is not radical? This was exactly how it was when I was a kid? My mother had to pay up front when she took us to the doctor but when you had a big problem insurance kicked in? It worked real well.

[cowman]

I agree that a user fee per visit would likely eliminate some of the abuse of the system but I would hate to see anyone have to produce a card at the reception desk in a doctors office indicating they were 'poor'. This information would be on file for repeat patients but those visiting a clinic for the first time would be expected to prove their inability to pay .

I suspect that some consultant is getting rich providing the government with draft legislation for the 'third way'

[blackjack]

...well i am with cowman on this one ... the only other countries that run health care the way we do are cuba and one other (don't remember where)...even socialist capital sweden and germany have private clinics...
...had to agree with that duceppe fellow from quebec...our nation has 10,000 bureaucrats in ottawa trying to figure out how to run a system ...every province has another level of them eating donuts and drinking coffee trying to figure how to run it... i just wish ralph would quit the b.s. and get on with it...the system needs a changin...

[Horse]

I never was one to throw out the old before you got the new and so far Ralph hasnt said one thing ,I realy believe he dosent have a clue other than letting in the insurance companys that are already in business[ american health care ]
One of these days he will just say we have had a discussion and then do as he pleases just the same as he has always done.

[Horse]

horse I am sure there will be TARGETTED consultation, and then some little group of beaurocrats will put their own spin on it !!!

[cowman]

What was the original intention of public healthcare? Was it a place for old ladies to go visit the doctor when they felt lonely? Was it a form of cheap birth control? Was it designed so we could destroy anti-biotics by giving little Johnnie a pill everytime he had a snotty nose?...I don't think so...
Wasn't the original purpose to provide a safety net so a family wouldn't be wiped out financially by a long term health problem?
This "public health care system" has grown into a monster that is out of control! Where does it all end?
The saddest thing that has happened is this "system" has taken away the responsibility of the individual! Being on the government tit tends to do that?
In everything we do, we should be responsible for ourselves. Government is NEVER the answer!
If Klein can introduce some sort of system that lowers the cost to the Alberta taxpayer then that is a good idea? If he can shift some of the responsibility for an individuals health back onto the individual...then that is a good idea?
Several on here won't agree with me and that is okay. And yep I've had close family members die of cancer etc. and yes it is an ugly disease and a very expensive disease to fight, but the fact is all the money in the world isn't going to save a lot of these people anyway...so why waste it!
I have a rare genetic disease that is terminal. Doesn't mean I'm going to roll over dead tommorrow or something! The main stream medical system would have killed me! Now I go to the "witch doctor"(on my own dime) and think I might just live to a ripe old age(and actually enjoy the ride!)!
Personally I couldn't care or less if they bull dozed every hospital tommorrow! If you want to die...go to the hospital! Back in old England the hospital was called by its real name..."the pest house"...and that is where they sent you to die!

[craig]

Great discussion from level headed rural folk. At the end of the day the reality is that no one has provided solutions to make the present system work. It also seems crazy that so many people want to protect the status quo when everyone who has had to use the system knows it doesn't work. Whether Ralph's solution is the correct one or not, he seems to be at least willing to try. For those of you trying to protect the status quo, you have had your chance over the last 15 to 20 years to make things better with no results. My standard comment any time I'm in a hospital is that if I ran my business this way I would have been out of business many years ago.

[craig]

craig, for years I haven't been happy with the status quo. When I was on council we had doctors making presentations demanding that the municipality top up salaries or they were all going to move to the US. They were told that health care was not a municipal responsibility although ambulance service at that time was.

I see a doctor once a year unless I have some illness that requires medical attention between visits. I am an asthmatic and deal with it through holistic measures plus conventional medication. When I need prescriptions renewed I have to visit the doctor.

I have friends that see a doctor at least once a week, then they need to have tests done, then they need to see a specialist and of course they need more medication. Their health deteriorates because of all the damn chemicals they are putting in their bodies but you can't tell them that.
If they had to pay $20.00- $50.00 for every visit or testing process I am willing to bet that they would find a hobby !!!!

I want to see an affordable health care system for those that need it, whether they are the 'old ladies' or pregnant moms to be or anyone else that really needs the system.

Anyone with half an ounce of business sense could go into our local hospital and sort out the necessary staff from those who are taking up space that could be turned into accute care or long term care beds.
The waste in the system has gotten out of control, throwing more money at it isn't going to solve the problem. The 'third way' won't either unless some control is in place on the spending of the health regions.

[cowman]

And if the "third way" is in fact private business running the health care system, I think you would see a good part of the abuse end? Nothing like a dollar in the pocket to make things hum right along?
If we have "public healthcare"...and nothing but, then why do we have these private corporations operating within our public system? Every doctor in the system has set themselves up as a private corporation, whether they have a clinic or not? The fact is these "private corporations" bill the public system for the services they provide while using the public facilities for free? If we truly wanted a pure public system then the doctors would become employees of that system, instead of private enterprizes? Of course the salary might not be as much....which is why the doctors would never agree to it!
The fact is most GPs don't really do much these days. They are pill pushers and referal services! Occasionally they might lower themselves to sew you up or something? A ten minute job...bill the government $400! Oh and don't forget to come back to get those stitches out...bingo! Another $150!
As I said before my local vet is pretty good at sewing...probably get you sewed up for $20...and you can take out your own darned stitches!

[cowman]

Just a little tidbit: When I was young my Dad raised purebred black Labs. One day he caught a very expensive female in the mower and cut off her front leg! He quickly wrapped her and the leg up in a sheet and tore off to town! The local vet was not in so he took her over to the old town doctor, who was a bit of a drunk! The old doctor took her up to the hospital and operated right in the operating room! Sewed all the tendons, blood vessels etc....did one hell of a job! My Dad said what do I owe you? He said well I can't charge you for a dog because I am a human doctor so I guess if you buy me a bottle of whisky we'll call it even. My Dad said I sure will...and the doctor said "On second thought you'd better make that two bottles of whisky!"
I think that dog lived to be about fourteen and had like 14 pups every year! Also was my Dads favorite duck dog.

[cakadu]

Cowman, as with all things there are pill pushers out there and there are an awful lot of really good doctors. The reason many of them set up corporations has more to do with liability than with billing or anything else. They pay staggering fees for insurance every year.

Doctors are in university for at least 7 years if not more depending on how they specialize, do 2 years as an intern and another 2 or more as a resident, again depending on what they want to do.

There are people that abuse the health care system and there is no doubt about it they are a drain on the system, as are the regional boards with their management systems.

When you have the means to afford extra services you tend to overlook the fact that there are an awful lot of people out there who cannot afford it. When one is fat, sassy and comfortable it is easy to espouse policies that won't affect you as much (and I am using the all encompassing you here and not singling anyone out.)

We have a growing disparity between rich and poor in this province. If the economy wasn't what it is, I don't know that we would be talking this "third way" at all.