Class Action

[Horse]

As many of you know for many yrs now I have been trying to get this govmt [alta] to stop subsidizing the lease holders of this province to the tune of app $100 mill per yr to the detrement of all beef producers, if we are to believe in true competion then we canot have a small segment subsidized by the public purse when we all must sell into the same market place.
I am looking into the posability of starting a class action suit and am wondering if any of you have had any experence in these matters.

[ivbinconned]

Let me get this straight...you think that if I rent or lease land....you think it is every one elses bussiness how I derive income from it! Do I understand you correctly?

[grassfarmer]

That'll be a tough sell in Alberta Horse!Especially with the "Foothills Mafia" that control ABP - truth is the "industry" does not "believe in true competion" All the free enterprise advocates talk a good game about how they survived BSE with no market intervention by the Government. That "market forces" will always be our saviour. So did none of them cash their big feedlot bailout cheques, or the calf set-aside cheques?
Government subsidy in one form or another is a fact of life in nearly every country with an Ag industry. There are always winners and losers and this depends how you play the game.

[grassfarmer]

horse, if I understand this correctly you are considering taking on the government for allocating grazing leases which include surface revenue ?
It will be an uphill battle I can assure you.

[Horse]

No I think the govmt has no right to pick winers and loosers. When I am supose to be in direct compition with other producers the govmt has no right to subsidize my competion with rates at app 5% or private and toped off with a direct subsidy of 50 mil plus.
As for taking on the govmt I think all I realy need is a list of producers that are of the same mind as me and as most class Action suits are on contingency I will see what hapens mabey I cant find a lawyer willing but I sure think it is a slam dunk as it wont be hard to show where the system causes harm to the industry as a whole ? if we are to believe in suply and demand then welfare cows are hurting your bottom line.
Ivebenconed I sure would like to know how the welfare system in poor old Sask works. I understand the prov sets the rate to the oil buis and then shares some with the lease holder but no where as generous as here in alta.

[Horse]

Ivbenconed just to get this straight if you rent or lease from any one but the govmt I dont give a dam what you do at least I am still competing but when the gov takes my money and gives it to you to drive down my product and subsidize you them I get testy.
Did you ever figure the economic advantage of not having to pay a mortage as compared to paying rent and then being able to sell the lease.

[ivbinconned]

I do lease grazing land and IF the government would have sold it to me 25 years ago (which they refuse to do) my net worth would be considerably higher.

But under their policy, I pay the taxes, which in Saskatchewan are very high, plus I pay the grazing fees which by the way, I have to pay, even through the dry years when the grass carried NO COWS at all!!

had I been renting from a private person, on the dry years I would have had NO expenses.

But I am suspicious that your beef isn't so much with cattlemen leasing grass land as it is with some of them enjoying revenue from the oil and gas industry on their lease land.

[Horse]

Very careful not to mention rates. Well here $25/ aum is the low end on private pasture and $1.79 on crown land and you think that is fair? Along with all the perks such as cows and fish where the gov will pay for fencing material if the leasee does the work and that is to keep the cows out of the creeks that shouldnt have been rented in the first place. $10 per yr is an average amount for a cow on lease and some yrs the grass is not good anywhere.
a couple yr ago the gov gave $4/acre even on lease land and some of that land is 40 acres per cow $160 per cow no one with private land got that kind of money.The pay back is 13 yr not bad. 160devided by $2.39 devided by 5 mo.
If you had an investement and found you could make 60mill doing nothing but was only getting 4mil for investing what would you do. Thats what this gov is doing except I supose they are getting some back in campain donations. As for taxes to bad somebody pays on all land.

[Horse]

Horse what is your opinion of the government selling public land to leaseholders ?

[cowman]

Horse: You need to realize it just ain't going to happen and move on?
The courts ruled grazing leases are real property and can be bought and sold as such?
It wasn't ranchers who raised the stink about the grazing lease system in Alberta? It was cheapskate oil companies who knew they could work some crooked deals with politicians? If they ever start to open up that can of worms a whole lot of important politicians might be trotting off to jail!
After old Jack Horner got through beating up on Klein, you won't find one politician who wants to touch this one with a ten foot pole!

[cowman]

oh but there are discussion in back rooms as we speak cowman. Mainly because of land use not the actual lease itself.
Don't worry, the oil companies have not stopped lobbying and there are many more urban MLA's whose constituents don't really think too highly of the 'cash cow' being generated on public lands.

It may be back on the table sooner than later.

[Horse]

This whole lease thing can be corected very easly. The minister has the discresion to set rates and to cancel at any time . Lets see the rates put to a fair level like mabey $15/ AUM and if there are oil leases on property thin a higher rate , shouldnt be a problem, seeing as the lease holders are just renting grass anyway.
Emerald I firmly believe lease land should be put up for bid at the end of term and as for sale I dont think the present system is fair where the curent lease holder gets last bid
I dont agree of selling the crown land mainly because who has the money to buy except mutlinational speculators It is a great resource that should be managed properly and show a decent return.
I see in the paper a lease of 4900 acres $9300oil rev asking 760,000 , 2700acres 420,000 Now how do you supose they got that valuable I tell you they are selling the diference between what is the value and what they are paying.
Cowman it is not over there is getting to be a lot more people pissed all the time and I think it will keep growing and sooner or later the gov will have to do something and with a conservative gov in ottawa people will mabey focus on some of the wrongs done here at home cause they cant blame everything on the Liberals.

[Horse]

there is an uproar by the Alberta Wilderness Association due to the sale of public lands in the Peigan Environmentally Significant Area.
Apparently Soderglen Ranches Ltd. is converting public land leases to deeded lands to accommodate a wind farm.

[ivbinconned]

"shouldnt be a problem, seeing as the lease holders are just renting grass anyway."

No horse...they are managing property!
I smell something here...and I think it is envy!

I feel that if I rent property I should have the freedom to obtain income from it as best I can and then pay the taxes due from any profit I make!

And if I can get a higher grazing fee than horse wants to pay...more power to me!

It could also be argued that if I am the "steward" (caretaker)of crown land then perhaps the public should not charge me anything for the use of it... but pay me rather to take care of it!

This notion of user pay was abandoned along time ago with the building of government roads, like horse having a shorter distance to town than cowman, or schools, hospitals, etc, etc, etc.

You are a purist horse, looking for the utopia of equality of potential among producers...you will be looking for along time, and you will never ever be content.

Perhaps the guys that get the breaks...god bless them...will help with the hospital project and curling rink and other local charities as well as support all the endevours of their local comunities. Many do...they do not horde their money they spend it...I am happy for them.

There are many other blatant injustices perpatrated on producers such as the freedom to sell your own product to who ever you please.

If you are looking for the government to level the playing field, soon no one will play.

[Horse]

Ivbenconed and blessed sounds like. I can just see you renting out your land and letting someone else get the oil revenue I think not but what you are saying is dont rock the boat it may hurt your income.
Envey o how easy it is to use that as a come back Just mabey I realy think the gov is doing a piss poor job of looking after our natural resources Every one asks where are the young people well land is to high to buy and some old farts have all the lease land tied up, how many of the lease holders paid anything for thier leases not many unless it is in the family and just a paper trail, When these leases were originaly let it was for GRASS this oil thing is relativly new and was never intended as a welfare state for the "Ranchers" I do realize it would cramp some peoples style if they realy had to make thier money off cattle , but isnt that farming one set back arter another.