Class Action

[cowman]

Horse: You say the minister could just up the rates to what the private sector is charging? Would that be the same minister who is Jack Horners nephew?! Now whether he has an interest in any grazing leases or not it is sure possible the rest of the family might? Very,very unlikely that will ever happen!
I agree the whole thing is a scandal, but it is doubtful anything will happen as long as Klein is still in office? There are some pretty huge scandals already about some of the sweetheart deals some politicians gave to oil companies on public land? Blatant kickbacks and graft. I guess I'd rather see some old boy get the money that some slimy politician.

[ivbinconned]

Oh...so this is about the other revenues!!! Took some prodding to flush that out.

No...I do not have any "other revenue" off my lease land and like I said I do not let it eat me up that others do. Others have more productive land...others get more rain, others were grandfathered into their operations while others have had to borrow.

I guess you could move to Saskatchewan horse and I will bet that where ever you LIVE there, you could by twice as much here...with the same money. BUT THAT WOULD NOT BE FAIR!!

At least you have a government that manages poorly, here we have nothing to manage.

[Horse]

Spin it any way you want ivbenconed it still boils down to a sweethart deal .Do you realy think 1.79/AUM is a reasonable price to pay . AS for moving to Sask why not just stick my nose up some politicans ass and colect welfare here , no sence disrupting my life when there is the same crap here just a diferent pile.

[Horse]

Cowman you had best not complain to much or how can you justify $1000 per day, and what happened to the CROW didnt the politicions shoot it?

[Horse]

Horse my view of the leases on public lands is the following:

Leaseholders should be compensated for damages, loss of use of land etc., but the annual rental should go to the province to be set aside to be used for improving native rangelands under control of the province etc.

I do not think that people should be allowed to sell grazing leases. When the user is done with the lease it should be leased to the highest bidder in a tendering process. That is where the sytem is askew in my opinion. How can someone sell something that belongs to all Albertans ???

I have no quarrel with the price paid by leasees, because they have to fence and improve the pastures, provide water sources etc.

[nicolaas]

Leaseholders should be compensated for damages, loss of use of land etc.


I agree emerald, compensations in the range of what they pay for the lease, such as 1.79/AUM .... maybe 10- 20 bucks per year?? corresponding to the amount of grazing that is actually taken away? After all, a typical oil lease does not disturbe that much grazing land. EUB keeps a short leash on the oil Co.'s wrgs to spills and cattle can graze quite close around the pumpjack/well head. I am curious as to who the spineless politician was who allowed payment for oil leases to happen, as well as buying/selling leases? That money is the tax payers money. It does seem to be corrupt and indefensible. I cannot see the status quo to continue for too much longer as more urban people wake up to this fact.
Enjoy it while it lasts!!!

[nicolaas]

The Thurber committee came up with some fairly huge proposed changes. I think there is a significant change in what is paid for oil revenue and there is now the issue of public access after the grazing season which wasn't there before, other than that leaseholders are still allowed to sell leases and have the last refusal if the proposed land is to be sold outright by the government.

[cowman]

The fact is the courts ruled a crown grazing lease is real property. Now you may not agree with the court...just like the drug dealer might think cocaine should be legalized...but that is the law of the land?
If you defend the rights of private property and you defend the law of the land, then you very well may need to change the law if you don't agree with it?
Good luck.
Horse: You ornery old bugger! Now what does my toiling like a slave have to do with the darned government? You are comparing apples to oranges.

[Horse]

Strange we dont have the right to own property under the constution but we have the right to own public land.Only in Alta eh.

[Horse]

cowman, if I rent land from you, we would have to negotiate who got the surface revenue from any wells and I sure would not have right to sell your land or the lease to anyone else would I? So I wonder how leasing public land is any different.
Municipalities rent land they own to private citizens but they do not get the surface revenue and they cannot sublease it to anyone else. That is the way the entire Public Land issue should be.

[ivbinconned]

Just a guess here but isn't it quite possible that the leases are the leasie's to sell because they are an integeral component of what might be a viable operation and if a land owner can not include a lease (that has been developed and improved over many years at HIS EXPENCE) in a given package... then land deals will fail as a result.

This makes it possable for long established operations to stay intact from one generation to the next??

Just asking!

[Horse]

At his expence how does that figure when he never paid anything in the first place and he sure hasnt paid his share since.

[ivbinconned]

fences, roads, water projects, power, etc.....

[cowman]

Horse: You answered your own question in a round about way? The fact is the leasee might have paid quite a bit for that lease? Probably quite a bit more than it is actually worth? Most of these leases are junk land that produces little. You quoted one lease that was selling for over $700,000?
If the government ever decided to change the rules in the middle of the game and tried to cancel the leases, how long do you think it would take for a lawsuit? A lawsuit the government cannot win?
Back in the late seventies Lougheed tried the same sort of BS with oil rights. Tried to say the oil and gas belonged to the people of Alberta and should never have gone to the freeholders! He got his butt kicked in court! You can not steal peoples property and get away with it? This isn't Russia or something, hopefully we still have property rights!
Yes the grazing leases are costing the Alberta taxpayer a lot of money to have cows on them and yes the leasees are making a lot of money on surface leases. Probably a mere pittance compared to what the province is raking in from royalties but still a fair bit of money. This has already been fought in the courts and the court ruled a grazing lease is REAL property that can be bought and sold? You can't change that.

[Horse]

Cowman you also answered your own question you cant steal peoples property what are lease holders doing ,? show me anywhere it says in a lease that you as a lease holder are intitled to oil revenue . You have signed a lease to use the grass.You cant cut trees without permission and you cannot grass someone elses cattle so I realy dont think your argument holds water.
Ibvc I dont know about Sask but here we pay for water and brushing I dont know about roads but why should we pay so you have better access to said lease. The lease holder gets permission to say put in a watering system he does so with his own money but he dosent pay any rent until he has recovered his cost so who actualy paid.