Health Care again!

[cowman]

Well I think the idea is if they allowed a private system to operate alongside the public system then entrepreneurs would build the clinics? In other words we'd have more capacity without the taxpayer building and maintaining the infra structure?
I guess it all comes down to whether you think private enterprize can operate more efficiently than the public sector?
A classic example might be vehicle licensing? Do you remember how it was before privatization? The long lineups, the poor service? Now its a quick trip to one of several "one stop" licensing services! Yes you have to pay a small fee, but you are in and out in a short time!
In Quebec there are a lot of private clinics for these minor surgeries. They do not charge an extra fee. But they are obviously making money? The trick is: instead of doing the procedure in an over priced hospital with expensive help they do it in a more simple setting...thereby doing it cheaper! I suppose the province could build its own clinics and run them more cheaply, but that isn't going to happen? The government cannot be as efficient as the guy who is trying to make a dollar...just doesn't happen?
I do realize the health boards are too expensive. This is what happens with all public systems? The beuracracy tends to grow and get fat? Better to have someone needing to turn a profit at the helm? There is nothing as efficient as the marketplace!

[cowman]

Cowman, my understanding is that doctors are not allowed to work in both the private and public system in Quebec.

At one point there was consideration given to allowing a private clinic to operate in a portion of the Leduc hospital and that was quickly shot down.

I would like to see what all parties propose regarding health care and who knows, perhaps there could be a good mix of ideas put to use.

[blackjack]

...you know what the sad part is...even the health minister's themselves don't have a clue how much alot of the procedures cost... when the politicians get the gonads to make the bureaucracy release the costs...then maybe we can have something to go by...frankly i find it quite pathetic you guys want to tax your grand children to death to save a system that is nothing more than a big blackhole...

[cakadu]

If they can explain to me how taking doctors out of an already badly strained and under-staffed public system and letting them work in a private system is going to help the public system and alleviate backlog, then I'll be willing to take a look at it.

If they can explain to me how long it will take before the private system gets backlogged and wait times increase and what they plan to do to ensure that the same thing doesn't happen on that side of the equation, without loosing any quality of service there, then I'll be willing to listen.

From a devil's advocate standpoint - if we can take resources and revenue away from future generations without any concern for the fact that it belongs to them too, then what is the problem with letting them have the tax burden as well?

We want it all and we want it all now, with little or no thought for subsequent generations.

[cakadu]

Cowman, it won't necessarily be entrepreneurs that are building these clinics - there are many entities from the U.S. and elsewhere eager to build here. Are people going to be against big medical corporations as well?

[cowman]

Linda: I wonder what the turn around time would be in a private clinic? I wonder how much the cost would be compared to a public hospital? I wonder if the incentive of more money might inspire the doctor to do more surgery?
Maybe I don't get it or something? Maybe Ralph is a complete liar when he says the private/public system will cut waiting times, lower costs, allow the public system to continue? How is it so evil to have a system where you pay something to have minor surgery done? Surgery that isn't life threatening? Do we pay for dental? Do we pay for that minor surgery?
In reality this is a pretty small deal? It is not like we are talking heart surgery here or something?
I am not against big corporations. The fact is quite often they are more efficient than the Mom and Pop shop...and in reality as a taxpayer...don't we want the best bang for our buck? If the big corporation can deliver the service cheaper than an over bloated public system then I say good for them!
You know everybody curses Walmart...while they shop there! Why? Because they can deliver a better price, and usually a better service! That is why they are what they are...because they do it better than anyone else!

[cowman]

cowman, I would hope that we don't get a Walmart health care system !!! Walmart is lowpriced, mass produced goods, and fairly low paid staff !!!

I have no problem with private clinics as long as doctors don't have the opportunity to work in both. Do you really think that a patient will get the same care in a public hospital ?

I also wonder where the health care professionals will come from to staff all the private clinics and new hospitals that Ralph is hell bent on building.

If the 'third way' is passed into legislation then why would there be a need for two new hospitals ten minutes apart in Sherwood Park and Fort Sask., unless there is intent to rent out space in public hospitals to private clinics.
And that is something I do not agree with !

[cowman]

Well I really don't see the problem with a doctor working in the private clinic or the public system? Either way he gets paid a fee from the government? The only difference is the government isn't providing him a workplace in the private clinic?
In fact, I would suggest the doctor should be paying a fee for using the public hospital?
We do have a mix, right now of private health care? The doctor is a private contractor to the public system? If he was an employee he would be getting a salary...not billing the government for services rendered?
Where would we get the extra doctors? Well if it was so lucrative...maybe we would get them from all over? Right now nurses are in big demand in certain US states and they go where the money is? Its called the market? If we have the right to sell our products to the highest bidder and think that is okay, then our labor force should have the same right?
In reality we've been doing this for years? We've been enticing doctors from all over the world with better money? How many of our doctors came from the UK, Ireland and South Africa? And also how many of our doctors left for a better lifestyle in the USA?
If the money is there...we won't have to worry about getting enough doctors!
It is all very well to say we believe in free public health care, but the fact is if we are dead how good is FREE? If you can't get fixed up, who cares if it is free?
There is already two tiered health care. If you get sick and want to live you go to the USA for your best chance? That is already an option. Now maybe it will break you...but that is your choice? You can keep your money and die or you can take a chance and maybe live?
Klein has put it out there? Why is it so evil? What is with this attitude of "We all have to die together...come what may?"
The really sad part is people aren't thinking this through and are being brainwashed by some "utopian dreamers" and big unions who like the gravy train?
In my own opinion there is nothing the public sector can do that can't be done better and cheaper by the private sector?
And yes Walmart can be sneered at and all kinds of faults can be found! But the fact is, FOR THE CONSUMER, they give the best deal? That is why they are the biggest retailor in the world!
Everyone has the option of not shopping there if they don't like it. Just like everyone will have the option of not going to a private clinic?

[blackjack]

... i knew cowman would print out a great post... how can the rest of you argue for a system that is rated 32nd in the world for its effiency and want to hold on to it like a sacred cow... why not be the country that can be honestly #1 in the world at delivering health care instead of pretending to tell its people that we are...

[cakadu]

Help me out then cowman - if the private clinic gets paid by the government then is it any different than the public system? I thought the whole point of the private clinic was that the customer would pay whatever price he/she had to in order to get treated sooner and hopefully more efficiently?

Without any details, cowman, how can you argue for a particular system? What I have asked in my previous post are some fundamental questions - if they can answer them, I'll make the judgement as to whether or not I can live with it. Right now we have absolutely no detail as to what it will look like.

We have been promised for TWO years that there will be a public consultation on the Third Way. We couldn't do it prior to the last election because it was too complex for us folk to grasp prior to the election. Telling people to go and visit a website for comment is not public consultation. Having nothing to base comments on is also not public consultation.

I wouldn't call hip and knee replacement minor surgery. Getting a tooth yanked is, but there can be plenty of rehabilitation after a hip replacement.

Another point that needs clarification is that the people get operated on in a private clinic and then would their rehabilitation take place in the public system i.e. going to physio etc.

Bottom line is that we have no detail and therefore cannot make an informed decision. If it were that simple, shouldn't we have been given the detail by now?

[wilagro]

Ralph treats us like mushrooms.

If you haven't figured that out yet, just ask your neighbour.

[blackjack]

...well wilagrow i think its the bureaucrats and the docs that keep you in the dark...and you left wing think tanks can't seem to get enough of their crap...