Synergy Group

[cakadu]

I'm curious, cowman, what are all the "good cards in the game?"

There were many things done a few years ago that have to leave all of us scratching our heads and wondering what the plan was from the outset. When they were blowing up hospitals, did that help with the capacity challenge? How has road maintenance improved since it was privatized? Licensing and such may have improved somewhat but there are times when I'm standing in a very l-o-n-g line that I wonder about that too.

It will be interesting as you progress in both groups cowman to see if you can avoid the perception of a conflict somewhere along the line.

Are surface rights groups merely there to oppose or there to get the best deal for landowners that they can?

[cakadu]

Sometimes you really make me laugh cowman. I am not shouting that the environment should come first, but geez louise, could we at least consider it?

Think of a triangle with social, environmental and economic at each end. In order for things to really function well there has to be balance. Right now we are way, way, way out of whack on the environmental and social sides. Things have a way of finding an equilibrium.

It could be that one day all of the oil money will not be able to restore us to the qualities that make Alberta as wonderful as it is. (And I am not referring to money.)

If all we needed was to heat our homes and drive our cars, would we need to be digging up the natural resources at the pace that we are? I don't buy every plastic thing known to man and will actually not purchase things that come with excessive packaging. Not all of us want the toys, gadgets and gizmos.

[cakadu]

when you see what is planned for the oil sands area it is mind boggling. It will be the economic driver for the country, and the province will inject nothing but money into the area over the next few years.

Not only cash dollars but land being changed from public land to deeded lands and sold to developers, plus the plans to allow a huge tract of land to be used for stip mining with no thought for the wildlife or boreal forests.

I only hope that all this is worth the price in the long term. I haven't seen my costs of driving a vehicle go down, in fact the cost of gas is creeping up again.
Lont term projections are for increased natural gas costs next winter, anyone on a fixed income is going to have to budget for that through the summer.
My friend on an AISH pension pays 120.00 per month year round to heat her small moblie home.

[cowman]

Linda: I say the people who decide how this developement is going to happen hold all the good cards...because frankly they do! Think of the Indians dealing with the federal government 140 years ago? They had two options: Try to work with the government or go to war...and cease to exist! That is pretty well how it is, whether we like it or not? Now we can yell and scream and protest and maybe vote for some party that doesn't have a snowballs chance...or we can deal with reality and cut the best deal possible? Maybe you are just a rebel who likes to tilt at windmills! Hows it working so far?

[cowman]

Further on the cutting of services: I think Steve West did what he had to do at the time. I don't think the government has re-instated certain services with the changing times.
I guess I would say I agree with privatization, because it reduces costs. Now I know some people don't agree that happens and I can only rely on what the people in charge tell me? I'm not like the Pink Panther or something, investigating who is telling the truth and who is cooking the books?
So when the CAO of my local municipality tells me they saved $1.5 million a year by privatizing public works, I have to take that as the truth. Or is he a liar? When my councillor and the County reeve tell me the same thing, do I believe them? Or call them a liar? Are they all liars? Hmmm....and here I've always thought they were honorable people who I've known for decades!
Now I drive a fair bit in central Alberta? And I think Alberta Highways and Ledcor do a pretty good job, probably as good as the days of public maitenance? I assume it is costing less, but maybe I'm wrong? The experience in my municipality would suggest it probably is costing less...Alberta Highways is the main contractor in my county too? Or maybe that is a false assumption if everyone is lying!

[cowman]

emerald: As in anything in this life, there are winners and losers? So oil goes up, gas goes up...somebody wins, somebody loses? It goes down, somebody wins somebody loses? Just the way it is?
I will tell you, in my area, after the devastating drought of 2002, BSE, bad weather and now a crash in grain prices, about the only thing that kept some of these boys afloat was a couple of Coalbed wells and a few pipelines!
When Natural gas prices crashed this winter, what does that do to the old royalty check? Good for consumers not so good for the farmer who owns the gas!...believe me!
I'm old enough to remember the days when we had no oil and gas activity in my area. I remember my Dad hauling barley to Morningside for 50 cents a bushel! I remember when the car dealerships had to lay off about half the staff because there was nobody buying cars or trucks! Personally those "good old days" actually really sucked! I sometimes think we tend to forget just what this industry has done for this country? How much stability it has brought us?
I hope our leaders know what they are doing? I hope they have the best interests of all of us at heart and will develop our resources in a responsible way? I'm not some kind of expert...hopefully all those little university educated experts know what they are doing? We can either have some faith in our experts or we can be like chicken little and run around saying the sky is falling? The problem with that is nothing goes forward, nothing gets done, and soon we stagnate! When you quit striving...I think you are dead!
I'm all for moving ahead and I do believe in trickle down economics! I know that isn't popular around here? But in my opinion it works and I've lived a life where I've seen it work.
It seems most people on here consider me some kind of fascist or Nazi or something, but in my own mind I am a true socialist! Not the kind who says "here baby, let me give you a sugar tit and wipe your bum" but one who believes everyone needs a chance! A chance to succeed! A chance to be all they can be!
Not a handout, but a hand up?
Over the years I've hired people who most people wouldn't bother with. I believe in people, until they prove me wrong! I do fervently believe every person I meet has something to teach me, whether it is the president of a big company or the bum lying in the gutter! Actually I've met a lot of really interesting bums in the gutter...and no I wasn't there with them! LOL
Hey, I've had my tough times in life too...no one has utopia in this old world? I've muddled through and done my best. At the end of my days I'll know I did a fairly decent job, I think. I helped a few souls along...or so I believe. Just my opinion.

[cowman]

cowman, if you look at your county budget I am sure you will find that they are spending far more on other things than the 1.5 million they saved. Now, its up to you to decide if what they are spending your tax dollars on is a good investment or not. In my area they are spending on state of the art rec facillities in the local town, and then paying ongoing operating costs without even getting a line by line budget of where the money is going. When anyone asks why the answer is that if we don't then we will be criticized for not trusting the town !!!

So before you praise your county too much find out where the tax dollars they saved are going.

As far as winners and losers go, I realize that, and know that there are many that could make a better living but choose not to, the same as there are those who choose to have five kids instead of two and then wonder why it costs so much to live...all about choices.

[Horse]

Cowman you seem to think oil will save agri but if you dont have oil I guess you are SOL so does oil save agri or does oil save a few people who hapen to own land and some with royalties,
As for 50 cent bly yrs ago at 1.60 now who got more money I sold oats not that many yr ago for 66 cents in fact the neibour sold tough oats last yr for 50 cents.
I bitch a lot about oil but what is my real concern is the waste and the fact not everyone is benifiting from OUR resources and I dont realy think that is right

[Horse]

horse, in a round about way you do receive benefits from the resource sector. Years ago I bet the secondary highways in your area were gravel, and now likely most of them were paved. I can remember coming through Fort Assinbione to Barrhead years ago and the road was terrible, now its a nice paved highway, so that is one area you and others in your county have benefitted. I am sure your county has accessed numerous grants from the province and none of those would be available if it weren't for the resource revenue in the provincial coffers.
Your seniors lodges in Barrhead,and other areas are subsidized by the province in order to keep the rents low fo the seniors. Those dollars come from general revenues of the province which of course come from resource revenues.
You have a good hospital in Barrhead as well as one in Mayerthorpe and Whitecourt which are all paid for by provincial tax dollars some of which come from industry. In this are industry has paid for various items in the hospitals such as a cancer treatment room, a heliport for STARS use etc.
I point this out only to assure you that you and all of us do receive some benefit from the industry, but on the other hand I am fully aware that the industry does certainly leave a footprint that will have a long term impact, which is not all good.

I agree there is terrible waste in the system, in government as well.

We had a CEO who took over our organization a few years ago and was horrified at the waste, he initiated some measures which saw costs of various office related items drop consierably, mainly because he knew we were spending tax dollars and should be as frugal as possible.

[cakadu]

I have to agree with emrald about the county and their savings cowman. What did they save $1.5 million on? Not having to make payments and do maintenance on aging equipment? Without seeing the books and being told specifically what is saved and what is being spent in other areas, it is very difficult to know if we are any further ahead. Don't forget, if you tell yourself something long enough you just might begin to believe it.

What I do know is that we now wait longer than we used to when it comes to getting the roads graded and/or plowed. This last big snowfall saw us waiting at least 4 or 5 days to get any sort of plowing done.

With respect to your reference to the car dealerships - have you seen what sorts of deals they are offering these days just to try and move vehicles? I wouldn't say things are too rosy there.

Yes, we are all benefitting from this surge in the economy. Remember though, what goes up must inevitably come down. How hard is the crash going to be this next time?

[cakadu]

Cowman, Linda makes a valid point when she says that citizens of the county wait longer for road maintenance, snowplowing etc.

Anytime a municipality pats themselves on the back for saving money, if that money is saved by cutting services to their citizens, then what kind of saving is it ???

When I was on council we looked at every possible measure to save money on road maintenance, including contracting out all grader beats. As I have indicated here before we did contract out one for a two year trial period and it cost more than running our own equipment, plus the damn thing was in my division and the phone never stopped ringing with people complaining about the time it took to get roads snowplowed, the lack of consistent grading etc.

In my view citizens of rural Alberta have a right to expect snow removal from local roads in as expedient and efficient manner. Not only is it a required service under the Municipal Government Act it is also necessary to allow traffic to flow, such as school busses, emergency vehicles and citizens going to and from work. Any cut back on that service is NOT a cost saving, it is having the bottom line look better on the backs of the citizens.

[cowman]

Well like I said I'm only going with what I'm told? My Reeve, councillor, and the CAO all say they save $1.5 million a year.
Now without a doubt privatization fits my own personal philosophy so maybe I am biased?
Also Linda, your grader/snowplow thing didn't change when they privatized a few years ago? Red Deer County had contract plows for a long time before they ever re-organized public works and field services...except for two areas right around Red Deer which were still County graders?
Now in my area the young operator is probably the best one we've ever had? He just does a darned good job! You must remember these contract operators don't make the decision when they go out or how often they go out, that is a decision made by a county employee?

[cowman]

emerald: I would also point out that a cutback on service, is a saving! I guess the important thing here is "is that service essential"?
When the county was a public service if a sign got knocked down the sign truck was out the next day? Now they put up temporary ones if it is a stop sign or a yield sign, but not if it is something not all that important? About once a month the sign truck goes out and makes its rounds and replaces all knocked down signs. They usually do it when they can free up some employees. The temps are put up by the county contract co-ordinator who patrols the roads every day.
The net result is there is a big saving? Now maybe the service is not as good but it is better economics than having two employees drive 60 miles to replace one sign everyday!
And I hate to tell you but if one person lives on a two mile stretch of road it doesn't need to be graded as often as a major market road close to Red Deer? Basically it is just common sense? And common sense is not something a public system is too heavy on? Just my opinion.

[cowman]

I guess it depends on whether or not it is you that resides on that stretch of road.

I always held the view that all taxpayers of the county were to be treated equal. If we spent a large sum upgrading service to a hamlet one year then that same amount was to be applied to road construction, shoulder pulling or backsloping on rural roads in my division the next, and if the folks in the hamlet started to squak because they weren't getting another major project I told them that fair is fair, and people who live away from the HIVE have rights to, we all live in the same county.

Now, unfortunately, my councillor lives in the hamlet and pushes for everything to happen there. walkways for five miles to town, heated shelters for the outdoor skating rink, lighting everywhere etc., plus mega dollars have been injected into the existing community hall and he is on the hunt for a new building and wants tax dollars injected into it !!!!

Cutting services may be a saving but if that is the way councils decide to go they should campaign on that vs running around promising the moon and then wielding the axe in the first budget after they are elected !!!

[cowman]

And Emerald, they did campaign on that? They actually campaigned on going to a private system?
Lindas division was a clear example. The guy who was for privatization beat out the old guy who was not. It was probably the most black and white division around on this issue?
Now I will admit the old pro public system guy came back and beat out the new guy next time around...privatization wasn't all rosy and some mistakes were made at first! I believe they have most of the bugs worked out now and I doubt few people would want to go back to the old system?
And by the way in the last election, in Lindas riding, the pro privatization guy got back in with a huge majority?