bio deisel, ethanol etc.?

[daretodiffer]

These threads sure generate a lot of hooey that could be better spent on making electricity. What's with this 13 years of misery nonsense? A prosperous economy, a country rated the best in the world, billions poured into agriculture, land asset values increasing better than the stock market, with results like that the "we don't gets nuttin" crowd look pretty silly. Do you ever honestly listen to yourself? But then the lifestyle farmers aren't much interested in business management anyway it seems.
Anytime I see the harumph that the "bureacracy" takes up the majority of the funding of the farm subsidy programs, I realize we are hearing from the ignorant who will throw any figures and information around to suit their whine and wouldn't see the reality of facts if they fell over it.

[wilagro]

daretodiffer: AND do you derive most of your income from farming as a primary producer?

If not, then you have formed your opinions from what you have read in the newspapers or saw on TV, or most likely from driving by on the highway.

The farmers across the prairies and the east as well ARE involved in a farm crisis whether you believe it or not.

Land values don't mean much when faced with negative margins from farm operations.

[wilagro]

daretodiffer, farming IS a business and anyone trying to eke out a living on the farm does run it as a business.

Unfortumately I have heard comments similar to yours from some very uninformed individuals who just don't 'get it'.

For the most part it is not a lack of business sense that is causing farm crisis, but commodity prices and certainly BSE have taken a huge toll on the agriculture industry.In put costs are through the roof and with ever increasing fuel prices it is understandable that farmers are in a real mess this spring.

[skhadenuf]

Daretodiffer, your opinion shows the ignorance we are up against. Sounds like your obviously working off the liberal payroll. What is your occupation?

[cowman]

daretodiffer: You are right that we have a booming economy, land prices rising(in a few places), and billions poured into agriculture.
Now in this "booming economy" why is it that grain prices, oilseeds, livestock haven't boomed? The fact is: adjusted for inflation, prices are less than the dirty thirties when massive numbers of farmers left the land.
Rising land prices are just peachy if you are selling, not so good if you are buying/renting? In many parts of the west land prices are actually decreasing significantly?
Billions poured into agriculture: Yep without a doubt. Why it has made Monsanto, Dow, Cargill, ADM very rich! Of course the "billions" are a pittance compared to what our fellow farmers get in the US and Europe...the guys we have to compete with for sales and inputs, but yes still "billions"! Maybe you have a valid point. Maybe this country should just shut off the subsidy tap and we can buy whatever we desire from those other countries? Probably makes more economic sense?
The only problem is what do we do with all these darned peasants? Why they might flood into town and take away all the good jobs, or at least lower the cost of labor? Why with a little luck we could drive down wages to the status of a third world country! Then we could all share the misery together?

[SASKFARMER3]

dare to cause a stir. you must be Kevin hursh because your singing his same song, or your my stupid city neighbors that believe whats written in the paper, yes Canada is booming but farming is in the toilet and sooner or later you'll get it. Their is more management going on on our farm than any business, hell to have survived the last 13 years one has to know what hes doing.
and yes you hit the nail on the head what 13 years, well the liberal plan worked it made the people in the cities believe their was money going to farmers and that they were actually doing something.
hell look at their program for saving energy that the Conservatives are cutting, had a budget of 375 million of which 325 million went to staffing, and 50 million actually to the people who needed it. Wounder what the AG Canada numbers are.
So keep thinking what you do and one day you'll see.
Till you walk a mile in my shoes don't criticize!

[cakadu]

Actually, I'd like to look at this a little differently, if I may. Daretodiffer has given voice to comments that are likely thought of and certainly spoken by many. The comments show the great disconnect between rural and (I'm guessing here) the more urban folks - of which there are about 97%.

If these are the prevailing thoughts, then we do have an awful lot of work cut out for us, don't you think? Makes one wonder just how effective things like the protests staged on Parliament Hill actually are. Many of us producers can relate those those types of actions and as stated in other threads, many producers were thankful that they took place.

Part of the reason subsidies work in the US (I'm not sure about the UK and other European countries) is that the general public is behind the subsidies. If they weren't, don't you think that congress would have a much harder time passing things like the Farm Bill?

What sorts of messages can and should we be getting out there so that non-producing Canadians understand? As producers, we all know what will happen to prices if the majority of our food has to be imported. Look at Japan, it imports around 60% of it's food. They don't just spend 10% or less of their income on food.

Sadly, the message about the low cost of the food we produce here in Canada may only hit home when people have to spend more out of their pockets.

[cakadu]

Linda, the comment I hear over and over from urban acquaintances is that if they aren't happy with the money they are making and want to make more they get a different job.
They feel that if farmers aren't making enough money they should get out of farming !!! There isn't the understanding or concern that the farm may have been in the family for generations or that folks are committed to the agriculture industry.

I think that the protests may get the governments attention and the folks that organized it are to be commended but I highly doubt if it helped increase awareness among the urban popultation.

During my years on council our Agricultural Service Board suggested that each high school student in Alberta should be required to take a two week agriculture immersion course staying and working on an agricultural operation and learning first hand the challenges the industry faces. Of course it didn't go anywhere but I still feel it might be the one way to increase awareness that would remain with the student when they become the consumer.

[cowman]

I think this is a typical attitude: My spouse has a daughter married to an engineer who owns his own very successful company in Calgary. They live in a large new home have a new Beamer and an SUV, go on exotic vacations...etc, you get the drift. He is a very smart young man...who knows business and how to turn a buck!
He asked me once what was the deal with this BSE and why the government was paying out the farmers/feedlots? I gave him a crash course on the economics of raising cattle....and his response was "Why would any sane person be involved in a business like that!"
I tried to explain it was a way of life and tradition...and you could see his eyes glaze over...he just didn't get it...he danced to a different drummer! And I think a lot of people in Suburbia just don't get it? It is so distant from their reality they just can't comprehend it?

[sagewood]

Wow, have not been reading the topics for a while--up to the elbows in mud and calves--16 hour days don't make for lots of time on the computer.

So the topic-biodiesel--I have researched it extensively, as a neighbor's son is looking at putting in a small plant on my south boundary and using our common water source in that area. Quickly I can tell you, that new crushing plants will be needed if canola is to be used as a seed stock. Other seed stocks are used-veggie oil from the donut/fry shops etc, or animal tallow. Also, biodiesel will gel off at 12 degrees--that is 12 degrees above zero--so it needs to be mixed 80-20 to work in this country. It works well in the lower states and Autstralia etc. because their temperatures stay warmer than here in the frozen north. In the winter in this country--biodiesel in any mixture would not be a good idea--especially if you plan on actually driving your diesel--so the moral of this story--don't get your hopes up too high on this technology.

Now as to the urbanites--I couldn't agree more with what most of you are saying. There are fewer and fewer of us ag. types, whether grain or cattle or both. Urbanites don't know about our work, don't care about our work and for the most part are actively opposed to it. They have never gone hungry; always had a huge selection of everything to chose from and don't understand the word 'rationing'. Just ask a few of the Europeans about rationing and being hungry. There are still enough of the 'old' folks alive who remember being very, very hungry and they have passed their story on to their children and grand-children. They are not about to leave their farmers hanging out to dry--the funds actually get to the farmer to keep them going and keep them re-investing in the economy.

I have been stating for many years that once this generation (boomers) leave the land, the country in general is going to understand what we contributed to the GNP of this country and what it is to pay 40% of their income towards 'not-so-cheap' imported food--when they can get it. I don't believe for one minute that food will come cheaply from third world countries once they realize that we in Canada cannot feed ourselves.

As to the old-timers leaving the land--some of those people aren't that old that are leaving--just look at the Ritchie Bros. sales in Sask. The catalogue is huge and those folks are getting out fast while they still have a little cash to live on. In Ab. the machinery sales have sky-rocketed--the boomers are selling their machinery while it is still worth something and renting their land. Now while we still have the odd oil-baron lurking around and wanting to buy land and become a cowboy, a lot of the land in the central part seems to go to Europeans who sell out for big bucks over there and then come here with serious cash to buy land and keep themselves going here. Perhaps it is these people who will actually save us in the long run.

If you listen to Dave Rutherford on QR770--last week he was talking about the farming crisis and the protests in the east and he kept saying the same thing--why do this job? He does not get it and he is reasonably informed--so if he does not get it--how on earth are the rest of the great unwashed supposed to understand agriculture--one young guy called in saying the old types should quite whinning. He and his wife just bought a quarter section and with them both having jobs off the farm, he is sure he can make it in ag. I emailed Dave and pointed out that this young man is not really in ag., especially with them both making a living off the farm and that a 1/4 section does not a farmer/rancher make...but the old saying''it is the lifestyle'--I know my dog has a good 'lifestyle', I don't know that he puts in 16 hour days and hopes at the end of the season to get paid a little more than the product is worth--not to mention getting paid for the physical labour expended in those 16 hours. Those folks who have to pay to loose weight should come to the ranch at calving time--it could be sold as a miracle cure for the over weight...enough ranting for this a.m. Happy Easter to everyone...even dartodiffer who really should walk a mile in our shoes...

[sagewood]

Excellent post sagewood !!! I have so many acquaintances that think I am nuts to calve cows and actually like the business !!! They spend their spare time on the golf course, or at the TIME SHARE some nice warm place !!!
Many of them still are of the impression that farmers actually farm because they don't have the education to do anything else !!! Needless to say I do everything possible to change their opinion !!

[skhadenuf]

In order for the industry to survive the bottom line is we as farmers need to generate more out of the market or be compensated as farmers in the U.S. and elsewhere. As it is now by some measurements the Canadian economy is in a boom and what we are saying as producers is that we are not seeing our share of that boom. When non farmers hear of agriculture recieving A billion dollars although it is alot of money many are not aware just how trivial that amount is when it is spread out over all us producers and especially when some corporations are recieving the max out of these programs it leaves even less for the average farm. We need some other way than the current media system to show people the real story on the amount of billions we provide directly and indirectly to the economy and relatively how little we are recieving back. We farmers need to be supplying this info clear and precisely by ourselves. Many of the groups that are supposed to represent us just ask for money, we need to provide more of the facts behind the need. The media makes it out as though we are a drain on the economy when actually it's the reverse.

In order for us to recieve more for our goods someone has to pay for it. I don't quite think that the so called boom is here for many people that aren producers either therefore our situation is actually part of a larger classs problem where yes there is a boom for the rich but not for many others. Governments through use of propaganda often scare the other people who are just makng ends meet into thinking that if they (the government)support agriculture then taxes etc go up. There is no mention to the consequences though of not supporting agriculture in the long run, prices for food will be much higher than the amount of taxes, and the thousands of secondary jobs and industries that would be gone. Also the waist in many programs like the gun registry etc. if cut could go a long way in better use when you think about 2 billion spent on the gun registry compared to how much goes into agriculture isn't there something obviously wrong there.

I would like to clear up something else I had mentioned earlier in regards to the waist of administration in CAIS and crop insurance. I would like to make it clear that I don't blame those peope working there they didn't hire themselves and you'd be a fool not to take one of those jobs if offerred to you. My point is that the people that the programs are meant to help should receive just as much benefit as those working in the programs, if not then it's merely a job creation project. The problem therefore is with the people who design these programs and make them way more complex and therefore labour intensive than they have to be.

[sagewood]

Emerald and skhadenuf, again--I agree. As to the "uneducated farmer/rancher"--very few of these people exist anymore. I suggested to my son years ago that if he wanted to farm/ranch then he best get a large education--and he did--and he is not 'ranching' full time with me--he works in the oil industry as do many of our young and educated people. He works nights, weekends etc. when I need some muscle and extra help. Why on earth would I want him to go through the boom and bust (mostly bust) of agriculture and the stress of paying bills and trying to find time to be with his family and so forth? The boom in Alberta has not floated everyone's boat--the oilies and those companies who work for them are doing well, the rest of the industries are suffering from lack of funds, lack of man/woman power. Just take a look in the paper and along your local town streets. Every business has help wanted signs out--lots and lots of employees who can walk and chew gum at the same time have been hired by the oilies. Now I know that in the mid-'80's we had a huge dip and lots and lots of oilie type people lost their jobs. Everyone is saying this cannot happen again--never say never. What goes up must come down and the oil patch will see reverse fortunes again--until that happens, the rest of us jump to their tune. Those of us who actually are educated and actually enjoy calving cows and working the land, will find a way to continue on in this business--the easter bunny willing and hopefully the creek rises just to bank levels. I for one, will be dragged kicking and screaming off of this land that I love--hopefully when I am 95 or older. Do I want to sit in the sun and bake like a lobster? Not at all--do I need a time share so I can watch all the other old codgers gimping around the course or whatever it is they do with a time-share? Not my idea of a fun day...I can have more fun watching the geese/ducks return to the land--watching the calves frollick--watching the grass green up and in general just breathing the freshness of spring. I have worked at this job of ranching for the past 30 plus years (ooops--I am dating myself), and every year there is something new and wonderful about the birth of spring and all that goes with it. All those urbanites who decry the noise, dust, smell etc. of agriculture will never know the wonder of seeing life return to the land every spring--in my mind--they will and do miss the absolute wonder of life. Again--enough ranting--all the best to you for Easter and spring..

[sagewood]

I find it very interesting to see the 'snowbirds' from this community return this time of year, and listen to how they spent their winters !!
They have crib parties, go golfing when they can get on a course that doesn't cost $200 US a round, meet for coffee at the club room every morning, have patio parties every evening, and in between all that EXHAUSTING activity they make little items out( like train whistles) of wood to sell at the flea market !!!
They come back with colds because the weather is different here, and they wonder why in hell I don't sell the farm and buy myself a 10x30' mansion and join them each winter in paradise !!

While they were basking in the sun, I fed cows all winter, worked full time off the farm, calved the cows ( still have five left to calve) saw the grandkids at christmas and special occasions in between, forked enough SH__ and feed to keep in relatively good shape, and am almost as tanned as they are from being out in the March winds !!

To each his own !!!!!

[cowman]

sagewood: I think you hit the essence of why we do this little thing of ours? Last evening we took a drive out through the cows and watched the little calves frolicking about. My spouse who is a city girl gets all kinds of joy out of this! She has the old digi camera out taking pictures like crazy!
Last year we had two sets of geese raise babies on our large dam. This year there are four pairs walking around in the field! One goofy goose was sitting on the top of the barn yesterday honking away like crazy! The Red Tail hawks have a nest a short way from our house. These are the things that make all the cruddy roads, poor prices/high inputs worthwhile!
I have a small greenhouse and my spouse is busy as a bee with her tomatoes, cucumbers, basil, oregano etc. She calls the greenhouse her serenity place, from an insane world!
It is starting to dry up quite nicely around here and in the last couple of days the fertilizer trucks have been out. We are supposed to get the hayland fertilized tommorrow and will run the "float" over it after the fertilizer is on. Have all our equipment up to snuff for the oilfield reclamation business but still looking for another chem applicator. Hard to get anyone no matter what you pay!
This is what I call my quiet time, when everything is looking good before you get into the crazy hectic world of summer.