manure truck rolled into creek

[Ron]

this morning I saw a liquid manure wagon rolled into a creek, between 3000-6000 gallons of crap dumped into it. not a big deal but my kids play in it 900 feet downstream (its my backyard). I understand s--t happens but these custom guys fly around at 30-50 mph with a tractor and wagon, dont pull over and wreck a couple units a year. The story is the wagon lost its brakes and started whipping the tractor around, I dont know but they were about 600 feet from an intersection and 300 feet from a driveway, these guys run like @#$% and sooner or later they will kill somebody.
What regulations apply to these things? They are a commercial venture, run purple fuel, do road bans apply? I think you only need a class 5 (car) license? Should you have a commercial license for these? What about logbooks, hours of service, etc. I was told they get young guys from holland on work exchange, get them here and work them untill they drop, they dont have a car or know anybody here so all they can do is work (this is just the story I was told, it may be BS?). I know we all put in crazy hours in the field but seeding at 5 mph isnt a big wreck if it gets out of hand, at 50 mph running 24 hours a day on the road with traffic(dont get me started about sharing the road with these clowns that wont pull over, a couple years ago a fendt met a deere and they clipped tires, ripped the axle right off the fendt and wrecked both units.
I know if I dont like crap move to town, I dont mind the smell coming from the field but from my backyard it sucks.
I know a couple neighbors phoned alberta enviornment, I would have thought an RCMP or something would have shown up, they had the road blocked for 3 hours pulling the unit out (I think the total was 6 flat tires) but nothing but a gong show.
Got some water samples, I am more worried about stuff like this tha CBM.

[coppertop]

ron, we have a custom manure hauler in our community that drives like a madman, he hasn't had a wreck yet, at least not when hauling manure but he did lose his loader unit off his trailer when he turned a corner off a primary highway too fast a couple of years ago.

In this county they run with farm plates, do not have a road use agreement with the county because when the county public works department tried to force them to sign one they went to every farmer in the county that they knew with a petition saying that the county was not supporting agriculture, so of course the farmers signed it.

They take a run at any neighbour that they think has complained about them when they meet them on the road, they nearly ran over one lady when she was out for her walk one day, but anyone that complains to the RCMP is told that they have charges pressed against the idiots before the law can get involved, however the RCMP has opened a complaint file so there is a 'history'.

It sounds like the incident in your area was more of driver error than malice toward anyone, but either way, you have a right to be concerned about water quality in the creek, and if AB. Environment doesn't do anything, I would suggest giving a call to the Department of Fisheries and Oceans ( DFO), because they usually get pretty excited about anything being dumped into a fish bearing waterway.

The NRCB, AB. Environment and DFO have an understanding that one will take over a file rather than all three agencies working on it, but in this case I would think that the driver should be charged with careless driving, or the owner could be charged with failing to maintain the unit properly. That is small consolation for the possible contamination of the creek though.

[cowman]

I always find it amazing that "agriculture" gets a free ride compared to every other industry. No way could the oil business be allowed to operate like agriculture!
The fact is a hog farm, feedlot, or dairy are really a factory and not a farm? And in reality these roads were not designed for factories but for the traditional farm traffic of a half century ago?
Perhaps they need to be upgraded to reflect the increased burden, but then who would pay for that? I doubt the heavy users would agree to pay and I doubt the traditional farmer would think he needs to pay so some factory farm can stay in business!
Luckily we are seeing the end of the factory farm in our area. The land costs are making them obsolete! Which in my opinion is a good thing!

[coppertop]

cowman, the livestock industry is virtually controlling how they are regluated !!! If they don't like the way the NRCB regulates them then meet with the Minister and before you know it the NRCB Chairman is history. ( That has happened twice in three years) The new CEO of the NRCB is a current AAFRD Director, and the mandate of AAFRD is to assist the livestock industry to grow to meet the governments business plan for 2010. The NRCB was set up to be a quasi-judicial independent body but that is a crock !! The current compliance policy is not to monitor any conditions on existing municipal development permits for confined feeding operations unless there is a complaint. In some cases the operator was required to install monitoring wells around their lagoons for leak detection and did not bother to do it, then applied for an expansion of their operation !! If nobody monitors the operation to ensure that conditions are met, then the public cannot have confidence in the expansion of the industry.

[coppertop]

I sould add that in some instances operators have been required to build roads, or upgrade them as part of the conditions place on them in the old municipal development permits. In those cases the operator built a road to municipal standards then the municipality would take it over and maintain it.

I am in full agreement that large operations, should have to post a bond to cover road damage during manure hauls, silage hauls etc. In my county the other industries are getting fed up with having to pay damages, have water trucks available and post bonds, be banned from hauling etc., only to see manure hauls, silage hauls etc.pound the hell out of roads and have the county repair them at the tax payers cost.

In fact this county will not direct agriculture to use specific haul routes, all they ask is for agriculture operators to file their haul route with the county and advise public works when their hauling commences to the county graders can keep the roads in passable condition for the rest of the public !!!
In this area there are two feedlots, one 1200 cow/calf operation, a top soil selling operation and a manure hauler that has a compost operation on his farm, so the roads get a regular beating.

[grassfarmer]

Time the Government tightened up it's rules I would say. You don't get away with this crap in Europe. A custom team in the UK were spreading liquid manure through an injection system using an umbilical pipeline to supply the injector a mile out from the lagoon. They had to cross a highway so had the bright idea of running the pipe under a bridge - worked fine until the pipe burst and the tractor at the lagoon was happily pumping away with 200hp and the guy on the injector wondered what had happened to the supply. Long and short of it they only very narrowly avoided jail time.
These are serious pollution issues and should be dealt with as such - of course it would likely be deemed outrageous restrictions by the redneck majority eh cowman?

[coppertop]

grassfarmer the European farmers that are now involved in the confined feeding industry are the ones yelling the loudest to have the regulations here relaxed !!!!!

I had lunch with my MLA the other day and he told me that the industry in Alberta has told government that in Saskatchewan they are welcomed with open arms, support from the Ag Department is there for the asking but in Alberta they are being regulated far beyond what is necessary !!!

I have in the past and still do support confined feeding operations being located where they do not pose an environmental concern and where they are not destroying the qualify of life for the existing community, however, no matter where they locate they need to be monitored to ensure they are compliant with the regulations or there cannot be any public confidence in the growth the government wants to see within the livestock sector.

[cowman]

grassfarmer: It might surprize you that the majority of redneck farmers don't raise pigs, dairy cows, or big feedlots? And hey who wants to live beside a stinking animal factory?
But then I guess we all like to eat too!
However there should be rules in place that make the factory run in a responsible way? As I said before the oil and gas industry can't get away with the things a hog barn can? The technology is there to clean up a lot of these problems associated with ILOs, but maybe not the money? Maybe the government needs to put an "environment tax" on all food to bring things up to snuff?

[grassfarmer]

cowman, I well realize that the redneck majority don't raise pigs or dairy cows - many of them have beef or work in the oilpatch. All the "no gun control, monster truck driving, no rules, play at cowboys" kind of guys. The guys that seem to shape Alberta's direction of government and law making.

[coppertop]

grassfarmer it is extremely unfair to make the above comment. Many farmers and ranchers in Alberta are are not 'rednecks'. They may drive a large truck, likely so they can pull a large stock trailer to move their livestock where necessary.
Some of them may work off the farm in the oil patch as well, but they are doing so to keep their farming operation above water, and not necessarly trying to influence government laws etc.


For some reason you seem to continually want to take a shot at anyone who works off their farm, drives a 'big' vehicle etc. I suggest that perhaps you need to meet a few more real ranchers and cattlemen and women before you jump to the conclusion you have.

As far as trying to influence government goes, the chairman of the Intensive Livestock Working Group in Alberta is from Holland; the chairman of Alberta Milk, is Dutch; The chairman of Alberta Pork is a european as well, and they and the groups they represent have a huge amount of influence on government in the areas of regulating the livestock industry. None of these gentlemen would likely qualify as a REDNECK, and I am willing to bet that they likely own the odd large pickup as well.

[blackjack]

...just my opinion but how much do the new europeans care for the environment...you always here the good doer euros saying how bad the oil industry is and all that pollution it causes ...should take the time to talk to the people down in feedlot alley that are not associated with the livestock industry and hear what they think...

[coppertop]

blackjack, there are numerous communities that are opposed to having new or expanding confined feeding operations in their midst.

If the operations are built and operate in compliance with the AOPA legislation they can co-exist with their neighbours but it takes a top notch operator to ensure that they do not have an adverse effect on the community, environment etc.

Everyone of us must do our share to mitigate the effect we have on the environment and the community, but large operations in many cases are owned by corporations whose shareholders do not reside in the community. In fact many large hog operations are run as satellite operations so they only have one headquarters where someone resides. This does not sit well with communities as they feel they are the ones dealing with odor, traffic pounding roads etc., while the owners live elsewhere and reap any profits.

Dairies are usually run by families that live onsight and for the most part don't cause too many ripples when they apply to expand or build new facilities as long as they have a track record of operating in a environmentally sustainable manner.

Unfortunately for the livestock industry there are bad apples, ones that thumb their noses at regulations and their neighbours concerns, and they make it very difficult for the excellent operators to find communities that welcome them.

The livestock industry can do far more to create public confidence by working with the regulator to ensure that all their members operate in compliance with the AOPA legislation and existing municipal permits. Unfortunately that has not been the case, umbrella organizations raise heck everytime one of their members receives an enforcement order and in some cases NRCB inspectors have been hassled when they are making final inspections of facilities prior to animals being allowed onsite.

I think industry has failed in many cases by not taking a proactive approach in consulting with the community and addressing all concerns prior to commencing an application to expand or build a new facility.

[grassfarmer]

coppertop, I never said all Albertans, oil patch workers or all farmers are rednecks. I've certainly noticed plenty in my neck of the woods though. The middle aged farmer/ranchers that think it's appropriate when driving on the road to roll down their windows and shout racist abuse at young Hutterites working on my land. The rancher that drove about with the "Mr Bush would you please overthrow our regime next?" bumper sticker up next to his Alberta beef one. And as you are such a council fan I could also use the example of my local councillor who thinks it's appropriate to tell offensive racist jokes about people of Pakistani origin at a constituents funeral of all places.

But my original point was I wouldn't let anyone get away with environmental pollution caused by agriculture or industry. This is a role for Government regulation and enforcement and thus far they seem to me to do a poor job.

[coppertop]

Again grassfarmer your comments are intended to ridicule mine. In reference to your sacrastic comment about my being a a COUNCIL FAN, I have served on municipal council and also served the people of alberta on several boards and committees. Some on a volunteer basis where all costs for travel meals etc. were borne by myself because I believed in the cause in question enough to donate my time etc.
Much of my volunteer work has been done in the areas of land use, and I am continuing with that initiative.
If you have a councillor that acts in an offensive manner, and you have personally heard him or her make unacceptable comments to or about any constituent, take it up with your Reeve who is a very well respected individual that I have known for years. He is the disciplinarian of council and I am sure he would not agree with anyone of his council members acting in an offensive manner to any minority.

Once you have put your name on a ballot and sought the support of your neighbours to become an elected official then you will have earned the right to comment on anyone being a 'council fan' !! I am a fan of democracy which is what municipal elections are all about, and if the public elected idiots then the public are the ones to take your concerns to at your county's annual meeting.

It sounds like you have a few knothead farmers in your neighbourhood, I have wonderful neighbours with the exception of one but he doesn't get along with anyone so we all ignore him. My neighbours include feedlot operators, large cow/calf operators and small business owners, including plumbers. I have given a lot back to my community over the years and so have my neighbours.I would suspect that your neighbours are by and large good people, so don't tar all of them with the same brush because of a few idiots.

[grassfarmer]

Where was the ridicule please or the sarcasm? I added the reference about being a council fan as that is where most of your post inputs come from - just like mine could be deemed as coming from a grass or Luing fanatic or rkaisers a meat salesman's. I feel in a free country you should be able to refer to someone as a "council fan" without being arrested - it's not quite in the same vein as the cases of racial abuse I was highlighting.

Still if you've nothing better to do than nitpick over perceived slurs that don't exist I won't bother replying to any of your posts in future.