wiebul ludwig

[coppertop]

Thanks FarmRanger. I have a real issue with legalizing drugs and making them affordable when some of the most effective pain relief for persons suffering from cancer is not covered by drug programs and must be paid for by the patient or their family. The day my taxes go to help subsidize the cost of someone having their little 'high' on a joint or snort of cocaine will lead the protest up the steps of the legislature !!!

Mind you, I have never felt the need to use illegal drugs so maybe if I chose to consume the stuff I would feel differently, but I doubt it, I have never expected the rest of society to pay the cost of any of my 'vices', whatever I choose to eat, drink etc. I pay for myself !!!

[FarmRanger]

The ironic part is that like tobacco, it wouldn't likely be much cheaper, due to high sin taxes that would be put on this "regulated product".

When I was a teenager, Marijuana was the risqué drug for those skating on the edges of decent society. Legalize drugs and what will be the replacement? Do we really want to go down that road?

[coppertop]

I hope not. We have legalized gambling and now we have to have gambling addiction counsellors at casinos to try and protect people from themselves and from gambling away their paycheck etc. All of this comes at a cost to society, mainly a cost to those hard working people who make better life choices for themselves.
If we legalize drugs because a certain sector of society demands them, the next things we legalize could be very scary.
Back in the day youngsters found a bootlegger and bought a case of beer of a bottle and shared it amongst a car load of kids. Now at 18 they can legally buy a few flats of beer, and anything else that suits their fancy and drink to their hearts content, until somebody gets hurt. THEN they find the Lord or mend their ways or cry in court at their trial for vehicular homicide and hope they are forgiven.

Others get higher than a kite,trash someones home or crash a party and beat an innocent kid to death....with that mentality it is doubtful if they would act differently if what they chose to consume was legal.

I hope our law makers have the guts to stay the course and stick to a hard line on illegal drugs and those who traffic in them.

[kpb]

You guys crack me up. How long have we been trying eradicate drug use? And how much have all your laws accomplished? The answer is (a) for more than a generation and (b) nothing, absolutely nothing.
In fact drugs are arguably a bigger problem now than ever before. And what is your answer--more and tougher laws of course. Is that the best you can come up with?
As far as cutting off hands as a punishment is concerned, I would refer you to England of a few centuries ago--not an Arab country and supposedly the most enlightened of the age. FarmRanger, I think you don't get it--that example was used of a law that has changed, like most laws do, over time and as society changes. Laws are not made or enacted by divine authority--they come from the minds of men and, as such, should and are changed as they are unenforceable, irrelevant or counter-productive.
I think you don't understand the crime tarrif so I'll explain it once again. If something is illegal it costs many, many times what it would cost if it was legal. This makes the people who want to indulge in this activity engage in other illegal activities--most of which are property crimes--in order to finance their purchase. We're not talking about a pack of smokes here.
It is laughable to say that the cost of regulating these drugs so that the youth do not take part would raise them to the level of a crime tarrif. I think that neither of you guys has thought much about this issue,
because you are just parroting the same old line that we've heard from the government for a long time. And what has all this money that we've thrown at the problem accomplished???--jails full of drug offenders, youth on crack cocaine or meth and a tremendous debilitating effect on society. So what's your answer--oh yeah, more of the same.
I would suggest to you that the definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over and expect different results.

kpb

[kpb]

Oh and by the way, in regards to Roscoe. Anyone who molests children or engages in child pornography or ****s women should be given a jail term and castrated.
It has been definitely shown in several studies that these offenders cannot be rehabilitated no matter what course of rehabiliation is presented or for how long. There is no chance of these people being safely bought back into our midst. Therefore the only reasonable course of action to protect society as a whole is castration.

kpb

[cakadu]

If you added another $15,000 or so to the cost to keep a criminal in jail, then you would be getting close to what it actually costs. And that cost is for a prisoner in as a "regular" and not someone who needs to be in a maximum facility or a special handling unit, or someone the likes of a Bernardo who must be segregated for 23 hours a day AND watched to make sure nothing happens to him.

Where is the money going to come from to build more jails and more importantly, where are we going to get additional staff from? Remember, Harper said he was going to do this without necessarily increasing any of the money that is being spent in the Correctional Service now. As taxpayers, are we willing to pay for more jails to be built? Do you want to become like the American penal system where criminals potentially spend as little as 1/6 of their actual sentence incarcerated?

I'm not for or against this whole issue of longer sentences and more people being put in jail - my question is how is it going to be accomplished?

Anyone who sells illegal drugs to kids should be locked up. A surprising fact that you may not know is that this whole crystal meth thing is a much greater problem here in Alberta than it is in the rest of the country. It is beginning to surface in other parts of the country but I was astounded to learn it is a much more grave problem here. The young fellow you speak of coppertop, sadly, is the result of the meth doing it's job in a very short period of time.

A generation ago, parents had to worry about drugs - heroin being the worst at that time of course. The types of drugs available back then are tame in comparison to what is out there today. I can't imagine what it must be like parenting today and trying to keep your kids off drugs. Nor can I imagine the anguish parents must go through when their kids are hooked on drugs.

I also can't imagine what it must be like to be a peace officer and having to deal with people that are totally out of it on some of these drugs.

What a truly sad state of affairs we find ourselves in.

[coppertop]

And pigs will fly before that ever becomes a way to deal with these parasites even though it may certainly be the answer.If it was ever a suggested method of dealing with those found guilty of such crimes the bleeding hearts of the world would be crying bloody murder about violation of their rights, inhuman treatment etc., not taking time to think about the sort of treatment these pedophiles, rapists etc. have meted out to their prey.

As for us GUYS giving any thought to issues discussed, I can assure you that spending numerous years as a volunteer on my local RCMP detachment Public Advisory Committee has given me much ammo for my comments.

kpb, I respect many of your ideas and comments on this site but I certainly do not agree with you on this one. If, in your mind, that makes me an archaic thinker, then so be it, I can assure you I am not alone.

[cowman]

Well I would say kpb makes a good point? Prohibition...just doesn't work...period!
Lets not forget this: Tobacco and alcohol kill more people and mess up their lives than illegal drugs do? And incidently the "pusher" of those drugs are your local federal and provincial governments!
I believe if you are an adult, you can choose to do to yourself whatever you want? No government in the world can stop you from sticking a needle in your arm or putting whatever up your nose!...Nor should they? It's your life?
If the darned government could ever get over the idea they need to wipe everybodys noses and butts, it might be helpful?
Groups like the Hells Angels, Jaimacan possees, asian gangs are becoming fabulously rich because of prohibition? They certainly don't want to see a regulated and controlled drug trade, because the illegal trade is their bread and butter! Whenever the government declares something "illegal", you just created a wealth source for the predators in our society?
Of course the real sad thing about the "war on drugs" is they target the most benign drug out there... because it is visible and easy to detect! So we have people going to jail and having a felony record over a simple plant? Absolutely insane!

[coppertop]

cowman, the government in some provinced are paying for the needles for the @@##$$ addicts !!

I have a problem when my tax dollars have to pick up the pieces because people choose to ruin their health, spend their income ( legal or illegal) on substances vs being responsible enough to provide the necessities of life for themselves and their families, and that responsibility falls to the rest of us.

By making the choice which as you say is theirs to make, to live that lifestyle they are forcing taxpayers like me to live a lower standard so we can all pitch in to support them !!!

You can be the town drunk, coke addict, etc., p' away all the money you have and when you get old you can live in subsidized seniors housing for 30% of your old age pension.

If you have worked your butt off all your life and have a few dollars put away, you still pay 30% of your income but if you are getting a bit of interest you pay 30% of it as well. So at the end of the trail it costs you more to live in the same subsidized housing as the person that hasn't contributed much to society !!! That I have a problem with.

And exactly how would you suggest that the drugs like cocaine are legalized, and who would regulate it. Could those who choose to use it just pop into the local Seven Eleven and buy their daily supply, or would they need to see a doctor and get a prescription. If that is the case, their visit to the doctor would no doubt be covered by our health care system. Perhaps if they were in dire need of a good old snort they would be seen before the rest of the population in the waiting room !!!

[kpb]

coppertop, I respect your opinion and read with interest your posts. I also do not think your thinking is archaic and I recognize that your opinion is reflective of that of most Canadians.
But I would ask you to consider the matter of drug control again, not as a gut reaction, but rather in the interest of effective control.
It must be said that our efforts to control drugs has been a dismal failure. Keeping people in jail is incredibly expensive.
The suggested route of more laws, more jail time has not proven to be effective. You think my suggestion of legalization followed by controlled sale (in a liquor outlet store type of arrangement, not by doctor or by 7-11) is not accceptable to you. So what is your solution? I know that you are a thinking person so you must realize that more of the same is not going to do the trick.
Cowman's point about marijuana is also very valid. Say what you want about hard drugs but we should certainly not be wasting resources, money, etc. not to say ruining many lives by giving them a felony conviction over trying to control the adult use of a plant that has been shown, in repeated studies, to be not as dangerous to one's health as alcohol or, even, tobacco.

kpb

[coppertop]

kpb, believe me I understand where you are coming from on this issue but I cannot for the life of me understand why we the taxpayers have to pay for the regulation of anything that causes dependency. Look at the costs to the health care system from smoking and alcohol abuse. Both these substances are regulated in some form, and at a time when governments are spending a small fortune in advertising against the use of these commodities why would we want to regulate anything stronger ?

I guess I don't understand why people get hooked on this stuff in the first place, maybe that is my downfall, but why in heck don't they want to stop using drugs, get help which is available at our expense to do so rather than be able to buy it whenever they want to ???

I have dontated a significant amount of items and funds to a school that is being built to assist young people who are hooked on drugs to clean up their act and finish their education in a controlled environment. This school is being built, and will be run by volunteers. There is a cost to enroll and live in residence, and the waiting list is a mile long with parents wanting to get their kids cleaned up and being willing to pay whatever it costs.
There are even those who are offering to pay double to jump the que and get their kids into treatment immediately. Of course the school cannot do business that way, but it is a sad day in our society when we need these schools. Do you think we would need less of them if drugs were legalized ? I sure don't have the answer to this huge issue but I am very concerned that if we legalize drugs to the extent that people can walk into a liquor store and buy them then the problems that are already in place with abuse of drugs and alcohol will be compounded.

[cowman]

coppertop: The fact is alcohol was once prohibited? And it was an utter disaster?
Now the government has control of it and is making money off it! The fact is without alcohol and tobacco taxes the government would be broke? Now before you jump all over me on that statement...bare with me a moment!
If tobacco and alcohol were illegal, there would still be a market for them. The government would still have the health costs, disruption of lives etc., but no revenue from taxes and the added expense of extra policing, incarceration, and a large number of citizens who were criminals!
Also lets not forget, despite added health costs for these two legal drugs, the government saves mega bucks on pension money as users tend to die a lot sooner? Pensioners are costly for the government!
I'm not a big fan of drugs, but the reality is they are here to stay and we need to deal with it? Building more prisons and spending billions on a "war on drugs" is a very expensive way to go? We've had a "war on drugs" going for quite awhile...hows it working so far?
I would suggest the government model of reducing tobacco use might be better? More education and tax the hell out of it?
People are funny? You tell them they can't have something...they are going to want it! Gambling, booze, tobacco, prostitution, drugs! And wherever there is a demand someone sure will supply it, and the more the government cracks down on these vices, the more profit for the predators!
I agree very much that our society has become very irresponsible in regards to taking care of themselves! Cradle to grave socialist policies don't work in the long run? You create a society that is irresponsible and lazy!

[FarmRanger]

I agree that education is important. Education helps, but can’t that education come in addition to keeping street drugs illegal, instead of hypocritically making them legal and then telling us how bad they are? We should be showing our young people the human tragedy resulting from abusing drugs, and how quickly some drugs like crystal meth can mush your brain. But legalizing and “taxing the hell out of it”? I suspect the costs from legalizing crystal meth would far outweigh any tax collected.
At least smokers are contributing members of society until they need the medical system. How much contribution would we have from meth addicts versus their cost to society? Do we raise the price of meth to cover this shortfall? Hmm, more incentive to make “illegal” crystal meth to thwart the tax man. So we’d still have illegal drug pushers, except we’d call them smugglers, or unlicensed manufacturers. Meanwhile, like cigarettes, the government will have given it’s tacit approval to blowing your teen’s brains out with meth. What are the legal repercussions of doing so?
Some people will always engage in dangerous behaviour no matter what the law says, but does this justify relinquishing the law for the rest of us? Aren’t we supposed to protect society with laws, especially our most vulnerable?

[coppertop]

Yesterday I attended a family gathering where one person attending is a RN working in a First Nations health unit. Drugs and needles are provided to addicts upon request, she said it has not lessened the drug abuse, in fact hard drug use is increasing, and gangs are running rampant on the reserve. The Province has increased the RCMP numbers at a cost to all of us to try and deal with the problems which according to the Solicitor General's office are drug related, so obviously providing drugs is not getting the situation under control in that instance.

I don't know how crystal meth could be regulated unless the province built their own meth labs !! I cannot see any politician coming out in favor of that !!!

I just thank the man upstairs at every opportunity that no-one in my family has an addiction to any substance,it is a horrific thing to deal with.

[coppertop]

kpb, I am replying to your post on the coalbed and cattle site. I do not advocate the government regulating everything, but there are already laws in place concerning drug use, drug trafficking etc.

My understanding from information I have gathered over the years is that marijuana use often leads to using other drugs such as heroin, cocaine etc. Are you advocating that these be legalized as well, and if so how are you going to control the behaviour of those who comsume these legal drugs ?

In our community within the past month a young 32 year old cocaine user died of a stroke. His friends took up a collection to pay for his funeral expenses and now are requesting donations to assist his common law wife and child and unborn child keep their home etc.

I would really appreciate it if you can tell me why people need to use the damn stuff in the first place and by legalizing it are we condoning it ???