wiebul ludwig

[coppertop]

If the deterrent was severe enough perhaps people would think twice before committing crimes.

The new government certainly sounds like they mean business when it comes to getting tough on criminals. If they need to build more jails then so be it. More criminals in jails may mean the streets and communities are safer for the law abiding citizens !

Or, horse, do you advocate allowing criminals to run the country. Then we could get rid of the RCMP and just have every man for themselves.

GEE, didn't it used to be like that before the WEST WAS WON ????

[kpb]

If we stopped putting people in jail and wasting police time and money on petty marijuana offences, we could spend more time and money on dangerous offenders.
A large portion of those in jail are in there for drug offences. If the non-addicting drugs, at least, were legalized and regulated, a lot of manpower and jail room would be freed up.
The case could also be made that all drugs should be legalized. If this was done, and regulated, there would be a huge drop in crime. Many crimes are commited because of the so-called crime tarrif that means that drugs are expensive to buy simply because they are illegal. Drug addicts are then forced to steal, etc. in order to get the money to pay for their habit. With legalization you not only eliminate jailing people for possession, and eliminate gang control of distribution (through legal, regulated outlets), you also eliminate the huge amount of crime that is perpetuated in order to get money to get drugs.

kpb

[coppertop]

The cost to regulate drugs would superceed the cost to keep people in jail !!!

If we bow to pressure from drug users and regulate the damn things then we may as well turn the country over to those who seek to destroy our youth by getting them hooked on these substances.

Perhaps we should forget trying to regulate the sale and consumption of alcohol at the same time. We have police and emergency response folks cleaning up bodies after car wrecks as a result of drunken driving on a weekly basis now, so if we legalize dope and booze we could keep them busier.

If the jails are full of people who commit crimes in order to obtain drugs then they are criminals. Providing them drugs legally is not going to change the fact they are willing to rob, vandalize, threaten and commit acts of violence while under the influence of these substances. Legalizing them is not going to make this country safer for the rest of us that manage to get through life without crutches such as booze and dope, and interestingly enough we also manage to get through our problems, ups and downs in life without bludgening our spouse, family or terrorizing our neighbourhoods.

[kpb]

coppertop, your arguments are the same old tired ones that authorities have used for about 70 years as they waged a war on drug use. Do you think they're winning the war?
As far as costs are concerned I think you need to do some research. The cost to keep someone in jail is between $25,000 and $40,000 per year. Do you seriously think that regulating drugs like alcohol would cost that much?
The fact is that over half the people in jail are there for drug offences.
The only way to ensure that young people do not use drugs is to legalize and regulate. The current laws on drug use by anyone have not made a slightest difference in the use by the youth. But more liberal laws would allow for better treatment for the sick and abused and a stiffer ban on selling to the under-age (as per alcohol). None of the above is currently being done in a meaningful way.
The reason that crime is associated with drug use is not, for the most part, because there are drug-crazed addicts roaming the streets but, rather, because people who take drugs have to spend a lot of money to buy those drugs. Why? Because the drugs are illegal and, because of that there is a crime tarrif on them that inflates their price. Drug users then have to steal and kill to get the money to buy the drugs. This would be eliminated with legalization.
Finally, your argument that because a law is on the books it has inherent value is completely specious. Laws change all the time. A few hundred years ago we chopped off hands for stealing. Presumably we are more enlightened now so no longer do that. A law is only valid for a particular society at a particular time. I say that attempts to make drug use (and for that matter, prostitution)illegal have not worked and cannot work. Your way is self-evidently not working.

kpb

[coppertop]

This post was originally about Weibo Ludwig, who I don't think was ever charged with drug related crimes.
It then discussed Jim Rozco, who among other things was a predator against young men. Now, I doubt that any thinking person would legalize that behavior.

Communities all across this country are fighting a huge battle against crystal meth. The government has just made accessing the ingredients more difficult by keeping them off the shelves in drug stores and behind the pharmacy counter. Should they be put back on the shelves and regulated ??? I think not !!!

People who make the choice to use any substance realize there is a cost to doing so. Some people choose to drink up every penny they make, leaving the cost to look after the social and creature comforts of themselves and family if they have one to the rest of society.
Legalizing soft drugs is not going to take away the criminal element. If they choose to spend all their disposal income on the REGULATED drugs then what is stopping them from turning to crime to provide the funding for their creature comforts, or do the rest of us have to support them as they snort, sniff and smoke what little brains they have away ??

This morning at our local IGA Garden Market a young man carried out my groceries. He was an outstanding young fellow, wonderful athlete, excelled at school, was his parents pride and joy and their dreams rested with him.

HE got mixed up with crystal meth some time ago and literally burned out his brain to the point where he now spends his days as a grocery boy under the auspices of the local handicapped society. Talk to his parents about legalizing drugs and whether they feel that the jails are full of poor misguided souls that would promply become model citizens if they could just get their habits legalized.

Life is about choices, if we choose to break laws that have been enacted by governments that are elected by the people, then we pay the consequences. If the laws are too restrictive the governments of the day will have to react to pressure from the public to relax them. I know where my MP stands on legalizing drugs, and making things tougher for the criminal element, and his stand is supported by a vast number of people as evidenced by his overwhelming majority in the recent election.

In fact, at the next meeting of his executive I am going to ask the membership what they think of the ideas you have posed,, then I will duck !!!!!

[FarmRanger]

Well said coppertop.

kbp said
"But more liberal laws would allow for better treatment for the sick and abused and a stiffer ban on selling to the under-age (as per alcohol). None of the above is currently being done in a meaningful way."
We have laws against selling drugs to underage people now, and legalizing them for everyone over 18 is going to help this... how? Liberalizing laws and making drugs cheaper is going to keep more people off of them? It seems counter-intuitive and dangerous to me.
Yes, we have people still abusing drugs even though they are illegal, but would legalizing drugs help or hinder that? Cheaper drugs might eliminate criminal profits from drugs, but would it result in less or more lives being ruined by drugs? You say we pay $25,000 to$40,000 a year to house drug criminals in jails, but what’s the cost to society for a brain-mushed druggie and how many more of them will be created through drug legalization? Is there any other jurisdiction in the world that has tried throwing open the drug pandora’s box, and if so, are there measurable successes or failures? It sure sounds like a dangerous social experiment that would use our youth as the guinea pigs.

I think you'll find that western nations have never cut off hands as a punishment for stealing. I believe it's a practice exclusive to middle eastern countries. And it has nothing to do with the validity of drug laws in Canada.

[coppertop]

Thanks FarmRanger. I have a real issue with legalizing drugs and making them affordable when some of the most effective pain relief for persons suffering from cancer is not covered by drug programs and must be paid for by the patient or their family. The day my taxes go to help subsidize the cost of someone having their little 'high' on a joint or snort of cocaine will lead the protest up the steps of the legislature !!!

Mind you, I have never felt the need to use illegal drugs so maybe if I chose to consume the stuff I would feel differently, but I doubt it, I have never expected the rest of society to pay the cost of any of my 'vices', whatever I choose to eat, drink etc. I pay for myself !!!

[FarmRanger]

The ironic part is that like tobacco, it wouldn't likely be much cheaper, due to high sin taxes that would be put on this "regulated product".

When I was a teenager, Marijuana was the risqué drug for those skating on the edges of decent society. Legalize drugs and what will be the replacement? Do we really want to go down that road?

[coppertop]

I hope not. We have legalized gambling and now we have to have gambling addiction counsellors at casinos to try and protect people from themselves and from gambling away their paycheck etc. All of this comes at a cost to society, mainly a cost to those hard working people who make better life choices for themselves.
If we legalize drugs because a certain sector of society demands them, the next things we legalize could be very scary.
Back in the day youngsters found a bootlegger and bought a case of beer of a bottle and shared it amongst a car load of kids. Now at 18 they can legally buy a few flats of beer, and anything else that suits their fancy and drink to their hearts content, until somebody gets hurt. THEN they find the Lord or mend their ways or cry in court at their trial for vehicular homicide and hope they are forgiven.

Others get higher than a kite,trash someones home or crash a party and beat an innocent kid to death....with that mentality it is doubtful if they would act differently if what they chose to consume was legal.

I hope our law makers have the guts to stay the course and stick to a hard line on illegal drugs and those who traffic in them.

[kpb]

You guys crack me up. How long have we been trying eradicate drug use? And how much have all your laws accomplished? The answer is (a) for more than a generation and (b) nothing, absolutely nothing.
In fact drugs are arguably a bigger problem now than ever before. And what is your answer--more and tougher laws of course. Is that the best you can come up with?
As far as cutting off hands as a punishment is concerned, I would refer you to England of a few centuries ago--not an Arab country and supposedly the most enlightened of the age. FarmRanger, I think you don't get it--that example was used of a law that has changed, like most laws do, over time and as society changes. Laws are not made or enacted by divine authority--they come from the minds of men and, as such, should and are changed as they are unenforceable, irrelevant or counter-productive.
I think you don't understand the crime tarrif so I'll explain it once again. If something is illegal it costs many, many times what it would cost if it was legal. This makes the people who want to indulge in this activity engage in other illegal activities--most of which are property crimes--in order to finance their purchase. We're not talking about a pack of smokes here.
It is laughable to say that the cost of regulating these drugs so that the youth do not take part would raise them to the level of a crime tarrif. I think that neither of you guys has thought much about this issue,
because you are just parroting the same old line that we've heard from the government for a long time. And what has all this money that we've thrown at the problem accomplished???--jails full of drug offenders, youth on crack cocaine or meth and a tremendous debilitating effect on society. So what's your answer--oh yeah, more of the same.
I would suggest to you that the definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over and expect different results.

kpb

[kpb]

Oh and by the way, in regards to Roscoe. Anyone who molests children or engages in child pornography or ****s women should be given a jail term and castrated.
It has been definitely shown in several studies that these offenders cannot be rehabilitated no matter what course of rehabiliation is presented or for how long. There is no chance of these people being safely bought back into our midst. Therefore the only reasonable course of action to protect society as a whole is castration.

kpb

[cakadu]

If you added another $15,000 or so to the cost to keep a criminal in jail, then you would be getting close to what it actually costs. And that cost is for a prisoner in as a "regular" and not someone who needs to be in a maximum facility or a special handling unit, or someone the likes of a Bernardo who must be segregated for 23 hours a day AND watched to make sure nothing happens to him.

Where is the money going to come from to build more jails and more importantly, where are we going to get additional staff from? Remember, Harper said he was going to do this without necessarily increasing any of the money that is being spent in the Correctional Service now. As taxpayers, are we willing to pay for more jails to be built? Do you want to become like the American penal system where criminals potentially spend as little as 1/6 of their actual sentence incarcerated?

I'm not for or against this whole issue of longer sentences and more people being put in jail - my question is how is it going to be accomplished?

Anyone who sells illegal drugs to kids should be locked up. A surprising fact that you may not know is that this whole crystal meth thing is a much greater problem here in Alberta than it is in the rest of the country. It is beginning to surface in other parts of the country but I was astounded to learn it is a much more grave problem here. The young fellow you speak of coppertop, sadly, is the result of the meth doing it's job in a very short period of time.

A generation ago, parents had to worry about drugs - heroin being the worst at that time of course. The types of drugs available back then are tame in comparison to what is out there today. I can't imagine what it must be like parenting today and trying to keep your kids off drugs. Nor can I imagine the anguish parents must go through when their kids are hooked on drugs.

I also can't imagine what it must be like to be a peace officer and having to deal with people that are totally out of it on some of these drugs.

What a truly sad state of affairs we find ourselves in.