Coalbed and cattle

[cowman]

Well I finally decided to give up on keeping the coalbed boys out. The surveyors were here yesterday for four wells and several pipelines!
I came to the conclusion that farming just isn't cutting it and also because I believe the coalbed developement is about the most non intrusive and safe gas related developement possible!
I don't buy all that "water scare" BS that the tree huggers like to rant about! Frankly it just doesn't wash.
The company I'm dealing with have been very co-operative in surveying the pipelines on a grid and addressing my other concerns.
I also told the landman, prior to surveying, what I expected and that I will be dealing through my lawyer at the companies expense, and he had no problem with that.
I was a little leery about coalbed developement because I was afraid it might dampen my prospects to develope this land, but have few concerns now as the county has designated me "Ag B"...never to be developed! Well unless they need a dump or something!
I am also convinced the government has every intention of getting rid of the small farmer? It seems every policy they come up with points in that direction? I can really see it happening in cow/calf production, so have decided to make hay while the sun shines!

[coppertop]

cowman, ag policiy in this province doe not lend itself to encouraging the family farm does it ?

Case in point the provincial Ag and Food Council is top heavy with former and current bureaucrats as opposed to producers from all sectors of the livestock industry. Bureaucrats that no nothing about agriculture except what they see in print scare the hell out of me.

I only hope that the checks and balances that will and should currently be in place regarding coalbed methane extraction will protect the environment, water etc., not be just about short term gain for long term pain.

[grassfarmer]

Good luck Cowman, just don't go lighting any matches near the kitchen sink!
Maybe you should talk to the guy out at Rosebud - after getting some wells drilled on his place CBM unexpectedly started turning up in his water well - in fact his water well is now out producing the official wellsites on his place! And he has started losing cattles as well, 5 to date I think. Of course this can all be explained away by oil industry officials as "natural occurances" - if you are naive enough to believe it.

[coppertop]

yup cowman we would hate to have you go up in orbit !!!

[Horse]

Cowman if you were required to produce facts you would be speachless. Water shortage dosent wash? where do you get that?The oil companys are saints where in H--- does that come from. Now we all state our opinions on here but you and Copertop seam to come on a little strong as if the rest of us are uncapable to form a thought by ourselves.

[cowman]

Horse: Well I was just stating my opinion and how I see it affecting me. Not sure where you get this idea of water shortage? Was it going somewhere?
Grassfarmer: Not sure about the Rosebud area, but around here we've had gas in our water, to some extent long before there was a drilling rig in the country. Several farmers actually have a seperator on their water wells and use the NG for heat! One hog farm runs a generator that supplies most of their electricity needs!
The way the regs are now the casing goes completely to the payoff zone, so not sure how gas can travel into the aquifier?
I've been to some of these "info sessions" and I am a member of a surface rights group. I think the surface rights groups are turning a lot of people off with some of this fear mongering about coalbed methane? We've been drilling shallow gas wells in this province for a long time, often shallower than the coalbed? The wells at Turner Valley in 1927 were very shallow?

[coppertop]

horse, I get a kick out of your comments that cowman and I come on strong, of course you have NEVER had a strong opinion of anything !!!
Cowman, the only concern I have with coalbed is that the EUB is run by bureaucrats, and these organizations are headed by former bureaucrats, appointed by cabinet so obviously they will do the will of the government.

I know that there are lots of radicals in surface rights groups, but there are also many concerned citizens, I just hope that the real public concerns are not being swept under the rug in favor of industry.

[kpb]

I think cowman's arguments are very well written and sum up my thoughts exactly. It seems to me that neither coppertop or FarmRanger has offered up a solution to the current drug problem other than more laws which have proven to be ineffective in the past. As cowman has stated quite well, a legalized, regulated system could, in fact, be profitable as the liquor stores are now.
FarmRanger, it is not all hypocritical for cowman to support legalizing drugs while also acknowledging the danger of them. Hypocrisy is telling someone to do something that is directly opposite to your own actions. That is not the case here--there are many activities that are dangerous, or financially risky (alcohol drinking, gambling, mountain climbing, weighing 450 lbs.)that are not even regulated. We mostly accept in our society that people have the right to engage in many examples of hazardous behavior. Because I agree with this does not make me a hypocrite--it simply makes me a libertarian and someone who does not want the government telling me what to do everywhere.
Finally, it is interesting that both coppertop and FarmRanger bring up the meth example. But what about the huge number of people who are in jail for marijuana offences and who would be contributing members of society if outside the prison walls? Do we need tougher laws to deal with them too? To what purpose?
There are many people in all walks of life who function very well with a variety of addictions, alcohol, drugs, tobacco, etc.
Why are you fellows so all fired ready to have the government make laws about everything we do?

[kpb]

sorry guys, wrong thread, thinking about weibo and drugs while reading coalbed and cattle.

kpb

[sagewood]

Cowman and everyone...CBM is obviously a fact of life here in Ab. and sadly, even though we think we 'own' our land, we are really just the current 'renters'. The local councils can prevent subdivision and so forth, as Cowman has found out and I believe, we are going to see more of this type of bylaw planning, especially near the large urban centres, and those who want to annex and expand--no matter what size they are...therefore, as cowman says, ag. is not paying and if we want to stay on the land and do anything in the way of improvements, etc., then the passive, outside income from CBM wells looks most welcome to lots of folks.

Cowman, do be sure to protect your well--have gas tests, quality and quantity tests done--not just the usual report but test for hydrocarbon content and so forth. Be sure to get a copy for your information...make sure that if for any reason your well changes in any way shape or form for the worse that the oilies will replace it for you with one of equal or better quality/quantity or in the very least that your contract reads they will give financial assistance to you.

As to the rest--noise, garbage, entry, pipeline location, weed control...that is certainly up to you as to your level of tolerance for numerous and unknown vehicles (persons) entering your land at all hours--control of gates, etc. etc. Even though you cannot subdivide at this point, try at least to have the wells near perimeters and have the pipelines go straight off your property to do the least damage with regard to chopping up the land. If and when you sell, some enterprising aggie type may just want to put up a new building(s) and this cannot be achieved over pipeline ROW.

The big concern with CBM is not necessarily the drilling, casing etc...this should not affect your aquifer..where the concern arises with CBM is the fracturing of the coal seam which is very shallow and in some locations is connected to fresh water aquifers and when the frac happens, it opens the way for the methane to seep into the usable aquifer, thus into the water well nearby and sometimes then obviously seeps into the buildings etc. Encana had to recement a huge # of wells in Colorado because of this as the methane was bubbling up into the local creek. Encana was fined (something that does not happen often in the U.S.), but the big cost to them was the re-entry on all the wells, the workover and recementing to prevent air bubbles being left in the cement, thus allowing a route for the methane to escape from, into the environment. Encana likes to think that this cannot happen here in Canada. I am hopeful that our cementing jobs are better here, but the Rosebud area has not proven to be one of Encana's better attempts to protect water wells, basements, etc. etc. The folks at Rosebud have a very real problem with CBM and its after affects. Their quiet, tourism-driven, arts community has been bombarded with heavy, and noisy oilfield traffic travelling through their sleepy, little hamlet, as well as the noise of compressors grinding away 24/7 sitting overlooking their valley.

Perhaps you might want to also enquire as to what machinery, buildings etc. may be constructed on your land and if you allow a compressor, then you need to be firm about the noise suppression. The technology exists to have those compressors muffled so that on a hot summer night you will actually be able to sleep with your windows open. Where buildings are erected on land east of Beiseker, Encana have actually made their 'shacks' look like mini-grain elevators, thus softening the 'industrial' look of the land.

I have asked to have my ROW on the perimeter of my land fenced and gated, thus, trepass from strangers is limited to the oil lease and no city-dude thinking to go for a 'drive' can trepass on my land via the oil lease and thereby leave gates open to release my cattle to the highways/roads/neighbor's land, etc. If you get texas gates put in during the drilling, etc., be sure that your contract states that the texas gates stay in place for the duration of the well and that they become your property, not that of the oilies.

You can insist that the pipelines be removed (as well as the caveat) once the well is abandoned and the pipeline is no longer needed. Now I know you may be pushing up daiseys by the time that happens, however, your kids or g'kids, or the next land owner, may certainly appreciate that clause, as who knows--by then the big money boys might be able to offer them large cash to develop or build on your land.

Get building/machinery/pipeline route etc. all settled 'before' signing the lase agreement--it gives you more bargaining power on what these leases will look like and where the pipeline will lie on your land. Once the well is in place, it is harder to make the pipeline route go where you want it to go.

Whew--that was long-winded, however, just a few things to help steer you on the path to self-protection. No reason you can't get some peace of mind while still allowing the CBM to come on your land--remember--the oilies are all sweetness and light while they are trying to get what they want from you--later, however, you will find that for the most part they won't be able to remember your name or phone #, even for a courtesy call to inform you of what they are doing on your land, because once you sign off on the lease--the land is effectively 'their' land and they need nothing from you by way of permission etc. to enter, change or redefine that piece of land...so cowman, good luck to you. I have 2 CBM wells (not on the home section), but they continue to contact me for wells on my home place and I will go very, very slowly in working through this agreement, should it happen--what I may sign today will affect my children and my grandchildren. If these wells last 60 years, as they say they can, then my grandkids will be in their 70's when these fields are depleted. I for one don't want them to have to live with bad decisions that I made and saddled them with....

[coppertop]

sagewood, excellent advice for cowman and anyone else who may have coalbed activity on their land.

[sagewood]

Thanks Coppertop. I can certainly let you all have a list of 'my' wants and needs and concerns etc. if anyone needs it as a guideline. I have garnered many ideas from other land owners who were not pro-active and just took the money and ran--to their everlasting horror now--they have no control and are battling the oilies on many fronts and getting nowhere.

Also, having a lawyer or your own landperson assisting you is an absolute must and the oilies have to pay for you to have council..you do not have to make these decisions alone. And as all of you know, there are lots and lots of local resource groups that you can join and continue to be educated and pro-active in protecting your rights, water and land...

[coppertop]

I have negotiated several suface rights leases on my land, and the one thing that helped me was that our local Agricultural Service Board used to hole seminars on surface rights and how to negotiate leases etc.

[cakadu]

I would have to reiterate that it is good advice sagewood. I also wouldn't mind having your list of things to look out for because we will be getting called upon soon. Maybe not for CBM - YET, but we are having to deal with an application for an increase for shallow gas wells (could that be read as CBM?) by a company called Intrepid. They are seeking to have the zone from 1 per section to 4 per section, which of course we don't want. We are pretty much out of luck though as they are already starting to set up on the neighbors quarter. The fellow came to see if he could buy water or land for spreading, both of which he was given a no.

We may not want it, but we are going to get it no matter what we say or want. Being forearmed is probably our absolute best defence.

If you don't want to post here, you can send it to my e-mail at cakadu@telusplanet.net.

Thanks for your help in this.

[sagewood]

Cadaku, I will do up my list and forward it to your address...if anyone else wants it, feel free to let me know. Absolutely the local Ag. guys/girls are always another good source for information, as well as the Farmer's Advocate. I find, however, that all sorts of good ideas come from those who have 'been there-done that' as far as land owners go, b/c they have seen what happens to their land/water etc. after signing the lease. The best defence, is still a good offence (knowledge)A meeting is coming my way this summer for the CBM on my home section...guess I have stalled them as long as I can...will get the list to you asap..hg