Coalbed and cattle

[cowman]

sagewood:Good advice for sure! I would also add get a weed agreement in place, on paper, with a time frame to do it in? If there is ground disturbance get an agreement in place on tested weed free grass seed. A lot of the grass seed coming into the province now comes from Oregon and is polluted with narrow leaf Hawksbeard....those pretty yellow flowers in all the new hay fields!
If you are capable of spraying the lease get it in writing....when you spray, what chemical, and how much you will be paid! Don't rely on the company to use the right spray or right sprayer!
People don't realize how costly it can be if you get an infestation of restricted or noxious weeds.
I'm not 100% sure that CBM is safe in regards to polluting the aquifier but the fact is these companies know a lot more about the frac than they did 5 years ago? The frac is basically horizontal...which makes sense if you think about it? Coal is layered? They claim the frac never exceeds 20 feet vertical and since they can't frac within 200 meters of the aquifier...well that sounds pretty safe?
But the bottom line is this: The gas is there and the companies and the Alberta government intend to get it...one way or the other! You can fight it and eventually lose or you can realize you just can't win this one and you may as well enjoy it?
As far as fencing a lease goes I would suggest a locked gate, with you having one padlock and key and the operator having a padlock and key might be better for coalbed?

[sagewood]

Cowman, all good points. I did try the locked gate thing on one of my 1/4's and you know, not only can the new, young, inexperienced oilies not close a gate--they can't even remember to leave the lock, much less lock it, so that happy idea lasted about two weeks. Thus, on my home place, where cattle are involved. I am going to insist on chain link fence around the entire site, that way, I don't have yet more fence to maintain and my animals cannot get on to their lease and it helps keeping garbage, and trespassers off of my land. The weed idea is good, but again, it seems the landowner has to be the proactive one who checks the leases and calls in a concern--but if one could get an agreement to spray the weeds and so forth, then they might not get so out of control. But then, as I already have more to do than I can keep up with, I am wondering how much advantage it would be to take on yet another huge job at a very busy time of the year....isn't agriculture fun.

Yes, CBM is here to stay and yes, the oilies and the government are going to get it come hell or high water, but as you say, they have at least started to pay attention to the fact that this is new technology b/c of the way the coal seams lie--fracing the old deep wells was way down deep--coal seams and aquifers are all lying nearer to surface and it is a known fact that in the eastern part of the provice the coal seams actually come right out to surface--therefore, fracing them open will also allow any methane gas to come right to surface also--one other thought that I had is that in your contract you might want to include the fact that if an environmental assessment is required on your land--for reasons of sale or mortgage or whatever--that the oil co. is required to pay for it. Lending institutions are now very reluctant to lend money where there are wells or any kind, and where there is a proliferation of CBM wells and pipelines on land, they will not lend money--too great of an environmental risk to them...just heard that east of Irricana there has been a huge pipeline leak--yet again. I am not sure, but think it is the old MGV company--they have changed their name to something new and fancy--same old sloppy work. My neighbors to the west just had to go through that for years--smell, her being sick, etc. etc., until they finally realized the line had not been coated propertly, thus it had to be dug up--hugs holes dug to take out the dirt where the main leak was, and then replace the line with all the resultant mess in the fields, damage to native grass etc. etc. She had complained for a couple of years about the smell and headaches etc., but of course what could a mere landowner know about the changes in the environment in which they have lived for 40 years!!! Oh best not get started....Cowman, I am going to send cakadu my list of points to consider under separate email, but if you want it for a reference or reading, let me know and I will forward it to you as well...good luck.

[cakadu]

Good points all. I wonder just how far the limits will go and how big a cheque these guys will write in order to get onto your land?

Sagewood, thank you for sending me the list. I have a huge suspicion that it will come in handy when they come knocking. I'll make sure my spouse knows about it to just in case they come knocking when I'm not home. I've told him all along to NOT let them start talking any kind of compensation until we get everything else looked after.

Cowman, just because they know more now, it doesn't necessarily mean they know enough. They just know what didn't work before. We are embarking on things that we have never done and certainly not to the degree, extent and pace they are occuring now. We tend to look at water as something that will always be there, but it and land are the two things we cannot make any more of. Once they are gone, they're gone.

It is sad to think about, but one day water will become more valuable than diamonds. We're going to negotiate the best that we can, but I will never roll over for them.

[grassfarmer]

sagewood,
Would appreciate a copy of your email also. "info@luingcattle.com"
thanks

[sagewood]

Good points on the water cakadu. Without the water, the land is pretty much useless for ag. related activities, not to mention residency--I do believe we are past the days when one can shower in the spring and the fall, or even on Sat. night in a tub in the middle of the kitchen!

Anyway, have sent my list to you this a.m. (Monday) and will send it to you too grassfarmer..let me know if you have questions, or do not receive it...good luck to us all--information is power and I for one will continue to attend land owner meetings--to continue to be updated on happenings in the area....

[cowman]

I might just point out: Nope you don't need ground water to grow a crop? Take a look at all the barley, wheat, canola fields...none irrigated. Live in town, grow cereal and oilseed crops...half of Saskatchewan does that already?

[sagewood]

Yikes Cowman--live in town?? Not until I am very much older and infirm etc. etc.--too many people too close together--and no cows--still can't imagine life without cows, horses, dogs and a few cats to round out the herd. Yes I know most of Sask. live in town and just dry grain farm--they have done that for years, but it really isn't to my liking, and I suspect not to a lot of farmers and ranchers.

[grassfarmer]

That's a scary concept cowman - "you don't need groundwater to grow crops" Where does rainfall, groundwater and aquafers merge and become one? - they must all be related. I think without groundwater you would certainly have less trees - with less trees you would attract less rainfall. Note how the drier areas of the prairies have less trees than the wetter parts.
The opposite happened in Scotland where they blanket afforested large areas of formerly open hill land in the 50s and 60s with sitka spruce. They now get substantially more rainfall in localised areas and it has leached the land so severely that lakes downslope can no longer support fish due to acidity.
Still who cares...we could always drink oil or coalbed methane pop....

[cakadu]

You don't need groundwater to grow a crop, but you sure need it to have that spring of yours flowing, cowman. The groundwater recharges aquifers, sometimes hundreds of miles away. Come out this way to see the effects of draining away all the water has had. Out here we could be in a real jam if all this drilling activity affects groundwater. Without groundwater you have NO surface water. The water on the surface acts as a barometer if you will of what is actually underneath the ground.

People in town need water to drink - where does that come from? People that have never been without water don't necessarily place any value on it -- until it isn't there. It wasn't that long ago that we were in a severe drought and by some accounts we aren't out of it yet.

[cowman]

Well I'm not sure about the rain thing? It seems to come from the coast more than any local source...but I could be wrong there?
Who knows why it rains or why a spring exists? I certainly don't but will note when the drought was at its worst the springs flowed heavier! The rigs were hauling for miles around and they just started flowing heavier! And my pockets filled up with money!
I know Linda that there are spots in your area where they have a tough time finding water and maybe you have a right to be concerned. Here, just below the divide we have almost too much water!
There is a large area east of Edmonton that has no ground water? They seem to do well without dugouts?
But the bottom line is this: The gas will be exploited? As safely as economically possible? I think generally the people of Alberta support this concept? If you don't think so, don't vote for the current government! And how is that working for you lately? Isn't democracy wonderful?

[coppertop]

cowman, you are correct in saying the resource will be exploited and I think its up to the people of Alberta to hold industry and the government's feet to the fire to ensure that this exploitation does not come at the expense of the environment or a safe supply of water.

[cowman]

I think the government and industry did try to address some of these concerns? There are new guidelines and rules out there that went quite aways to protecting the aquifiers?
You know how it is? Some people would never be satisfied no matter what the industry or government did...short of a total ban on all developement!
They seem to forget that they drive a car, want their road paved, enjoy turning on the power or heat! That their job/income is a direct or indirect result of the oil and gas industry! Shut it all down and they'd be screaming the loudest for the government to do something!
We live in a pretty wealthy country. It was built by exploiting the resources available, whether that be the land for agriculture, for forestery, mining or oil and gas? The pioneers in all these industries were workers and visionaries, not a bunch of "tree huggers" who have some airhead fantasies about the good socialist life!

[specialareas4]

I would love to have the list you emailed to the others. thank you all ...for posting. For the new people out there it is the most information I have ever seen. I am so sick of being pushed around and lied to by landmen.
Thanks again
predigers@xplornet.com