New farm aid program

[kpb]

I think rook has hit the nail on the head. I do not dispute that small farmers can make money. Good on them I say. But if your farm grosses less than $50,000 I don't care how good your managment is, you are not going to be able to raise a family in a reasonable way, or receive a decent return on capital, on whatever you are able to net out.


My point is exactly what rook described quite well. If as an industry we want to be treated seriously by the government and the people of Canada we cannot include as bona fide farmers everyone who has two mules and a goat. There has to be a reasonable expectation of a viable self-sustaining business or we'll just get laughed at. I think the $50,000 threshold is more than fair and very attainable to anyone who is serious about full-time farming.

kpb

[ProFarmer]

My opinion would be any farmer with a gross income below 50000 should be considered just a hobby farmer and not a full time farmer. With todays imputs you have to have a mimimun net income of 30000 just for a family of four to survive. At a 25% margin you would need minimun of 120,000 gross. In conclusion to get involved in these programs and not just just holding the hand of the hobby farmer. You would need the income of 640 acres of land and minimum of 100cows or 500 ewes before Iwould call you a hardworking fulltime farmer with today's tecnology.You may think that you are busy with 200 crop or a hundred ewes but realistly that is not full time!

[WoolyBear]

A family with 200 ewes or 50 to 100 cows, and a section of pasture and hay would be very busy and it could very well be full time. Many of them are doing the work without fancy new machinery, or elaborate facilites that we see in some farm yards.

Big acres, and big machinery doesn't make one a good farmer. Most of them might also put in more hours per year, than some huge grain farmers, given that these small "HOBBY FARMERS" as you call them do it all with their OWN labour! Livestock, in combination with a little crop land is also a YEAR ROUND job.

Take a big farm, and divide their gross by either hours worked, or # of hired hands and see what happens.

[coppertop]

Good points WoolyBear. There are many farmers who have chosen to do without all the fancy gadgets, bells and whistles etc., to remain debt free, and certainly aren't hobby farmers. I agree that there are many involved in agriculture that look to government programs to help them that aren't really full time farmers. Some are working off the farm to keep afloat and there are those that have good off farm income and line up for every government program they can.

[Rodjam]

I remember reading the average number of cattle on a farm is somewhere near 30 head. It would be interesting to see the percentage of cattle on farms under this 80-100 number mentioned. This program may end up seeing all the money go to the guys with big cow numbers, sorta reminds me of where all the BSE money went.........packers! Seems to me there are will be alot of farmers that drive new pickups collecting most of the money. Lets face it, there will not be a program that will meet everyones needs or expectations.

[kpb]

I'm sorry woolybear but running 200 ewes and getting a gross income of 20 or $30,000 a year is not a full time job. Just like running 50 cows is not a full-time job.

There are many places in the world where one person runs 1,000 head of sheep. If you think that running 200 keeps you busy than I would suggest to you that you are not managing your time very well or you are fooling yourself. I mean what do you spend your day doing, for goodness sake unless you're scything your hay by hand?

As far as gross income per hour of machinery goes or whatever other bizarre system of measurement you are using, it does not matter. What I am saying is that if your farm does not have a hope of generating enough gross income to be considered a full-time business than please either get bigger or do not ask for government help. No other hobbyist around asks for government help to let them do their hobby so why should someone with 200 sheep and a gross income of 25 or $30,000? As ProFarmer pointed out so well, with a 25% margin you are netting out about $6,000 or $7,000 per year.

I don't care if you think the commercial farmers with lots of machinery are wasting money, I don't care if you think the government money just goes to the big guys. These are the full-timers who are trying to make a decent full-time living from the land. And yes we can debate how much machinery is enough and how we can get our cows to do more of the work for us.

But that debate has to be between farmers who actually have viable operations with a hope of making economic returns. Because there is a world of difference between hobby farming and farming for a living. And unless you think we should all go back to farming with 40 acres, a plow and a mule, which I do not, please do not expect to get any government support for your hobby. And please do not tell me that having 200 sheep or 50 head of cattle qualifies you as a full-time farmer.

kpb

[coppertop]

Rodjam, I agree with you, there are some very large operators in my community driving fancy pickups, huge farm equipment etc., interestingly enough the wife of one holds down three jobs off the farm, and has applied for another one !! I wonder if she stayed at home and he had several off farm jobs if he would be called a 'hobby farmer' !!!

Regardless of the number of acres or livestock an operator has we are all faced with high input costs, utilities, land prices etc.

[kpb]

coppertop, you're right--we're all faced with the same input issues. But for some of us, those issues result in questions about the future of our businesses. And for others--those with the hobby farms--those issues are largely academic since it doesn't really matter if they make a profit or not.

That difference is why one group should speak for our industry and the other should just enjoy their hobby. And why one group warrants government support and the other does not.



kpb

[coppertop]

kpb, I have never had a huge herd of cattle. The highest number of cows I have had were 50 purebred mother cows, and yet I feel I have been a spokesperson for the cattle industry for years within my own community and through the province by virtue of my involvement with my local municipality and by volunteering my time on various provincial organizations. I made a few thousand dollars a year serving on my local council but I can assure you I counted on every penny my cows brought in.

I think you should ask your local machinery dealer, feed supply store, vet clinic etc., just how much these so called 'hobby farmers' inject into their businesses on an annual basis.

For some, owning a few cows, horses, donkeys, chickens, rabbits or what have you is just a hobby, but for anyone that is running a cattle operations of 30 or 50 cows it is work, and if they do it in conjunction with an off farm job it doesn't mean they are any less committed to the agricultural industry.

We hear numerous complaints on this site about ABP, and from what I have seen it is the larger producers that make up a significant percentage of the delegates to ABP. I know numerous 'hobby farmers' that could have done an excellent job representing our interests, but likely they would not get the support necessary to be elected.

The point I am trying to make is that owning a bigger operation does not necessarily equate to being smarter or more committed to the industry we are involved in.

[nicolaas]

This program sure appears interesting. The "sundowners" (s per Kpb )would not be helped with this program as it includes off farm income into the mix, and most people make more than 15K to 25k per year with their farm income and off farm income. I believe that your farm undergoes a gov't assessment as well that may help in profitablility. But ,I believe that 50K is even to low to expect to make 25k net. I know with fuel, land taxes, fencing, repairs, land payments, etc. you are living pretty thin. THis program probably is a good fit for old retired couples who are just putzen around,everything payed for, not adding anything to their farm, and living out thier days. For full time large farms this program will be a godsend though in the bad years. With 25k you can put groceries on the table, and help with the kids tuitiion. Just watch, If too many people take part in this program, the GOv't will yank it, just like GRIP. My question....Should not CAIS be taking care of this?

One gov't program that should be modified is the purple fuel benefit for anyone who makes 10k on their farm. What a joke. I drive old beaters around for work trucks and see 70K suburbans and SUV driven around with farm plates. Bring up the trigger to 100K or at least to 50K and the gov't will save lots of money. YOu would get rid of at least 60-70% of 'farmers' in AB alone. If you use a brand new pickup /suurban/SUV for your farm truck, you usually are not in the business of farming. That is one of the biggest irritants to city people about "farmers", their use of purple gas. These hobby farmer people will still raise their 20 cows, 15 horses,1/4 section of hay etc, and will still buy horse trinkets and halter shanks from UFA, even if they lose the fuel benefit. THis will cut down in the number of "real " farmers and would mean that the next time the fed gov't gives out 1 billion in emergency aid, the people that need it (ie real farmers) will get an amount that may actually help.

[coppertop]

I drive an SUV and have a pickup but I do not have farm plates on the SUV and have never attempted to put them on it. In fact, I wasn't able to recoup the GST I paid on it because, according to the government EXPERT, SUV's are not considered farm vehicles so it is interesting if some people are using Farm plates and colored gas. I think that many urban folk have a very misguided view of exactly what farmers receive in subsidies.

The oil patch receives countless subsidies in the form of reduced royalties, drilling incentive programs have been used etc.

Forestry companies receive their FMA's for a song, so somewhere in all this it is unfair to point fingers at agriculture and feel that they are the only subsidized industry.

[kpb]

coppertop, running 50 head of cattle is not a full-time job--where do you get these ideas? For heaven's sake what do you do to fill a 35 hour week with 50 head of cattle right now?

I don't care about local vet, farm equipment dealers, etc. What has that got to do with anything we're talking about? The government has said that only farmers who gross $50,000 per year are entitled to enrol under their new program. I think that's right thinking because it seperates the hobby farmer from those of us who are trying to make a living here. If you can make a living off 50 or 30 or 10 cows great, I think that's wonderful but don't apply to the program unless your 50 cows generate 50,000 in revenue and don't whine about government support if you don't meet the threshold because, frankly, you're just not trying hard enough to make a living in this business if you don't hit the $50,000 mark. In my opinion the level should be at least $100,000 gross farm income to qualify.

And please don't think you represent me with your 50 head of cattle. Let me make this clear--you do not represent me or any of my friends who are large enough to support their families through agriculture. We have concerns that you, with your 50 head, have not even considered. Represent yourself and your hobby farmer friends but do not think you are representing commercial ranchers.

And please do not tell me that 50 head of cattle is a full-time job and lots of work. My 12 year old daughter can look after more than that and have time for play every day.


kpb

[cowman]

I really wonder if anyone will see any of this money? Lets face it the so-called "hobby farmer" probably has a higher income than the so-called "fulltimer" barely scraping by?
I often wonder who thinks they are getting such a great deal with dyed gasoline(deisel is different)? In reality you can cut a pretty decent deal at the cardlock and not have to own fuel storage, put up with crappy service etc.?
I think the time has just about come when the government should scrap the dyed fuel program as well as the farm license plate thing. Maybe time to get in the real world? Would end all the whining and percieved injustice?
I guess the big question is who should get government largesse? Maybe the best answer would be...nobody? If we don't want to pay for someone to indulge their hobby, or pay so someone who should be gone because they don't make enough...then why would we want to support the "landed gentry"? Do you ever wonder how fair is it that the worker at MacDonalds needs to subsidize the millionaire land owner?
Scrap it all and see who sinks or floats!
Personally I gave up relying on the government a long time ago. I consider them nothing more than a gang of crooks trying to cheat the people! And that goes for the latest group of liars that promised to scrap CAIS!

[coppertop]

I agree cowman, if anyone isn't making a decent living in their 'oil patch' job or business they change to one that does provide a living. I know that there are subsidies in all industries but it doesn't seem to matter what sort of program the government brings in for the agriculture industry it does not meet with approval of those within the industry.

I haven't applied for CAIS funding, although I am considered to be a FARMER regardless of what some on this site may think.

As far as being a hobby goes, I know the number of hours I put in on the farm, feeding cattle and calving, certainly its not 35 hours a week but it does take committment. I know many in this community that have 50-100 cows and work at full time jobs off the farm, they have machinery maintenance, haying, hauling feed, calving cows etc. to get done and for the most part if its the man of the house that works off the farm he has a good wife that does the farm work when he's away. In my area the 12 year old kids go to school during the day so aren't able to calve cows etc., mind you many of them rake hay, do chores before and after school etc., even when their parents may be considered hobby farmers.

The mindset that 'hobby farmers' have no right to speak for the industry is certainly shallow thinking, if all those involved in the industry, regardless of what size of an operation they had, would start speaking with one voice vs having one sector look down their nose at another group that are involved in the same industry perhaps governments would take this issue more seriously.

As far as died gas goes, I don't fill my tank anymore, I do as cowman suggests, and buy at the cardlock. I do get my died diesel tank filled but thats for the tractor only.

I might be small potatoes, hobby farming or whatever but one thing for sure is that the bank doesn't own me or my land. Maybe that is why I am not lined up at the public trough asking the government to subsidize my little hobby farm !!!!!!!

[nicolaas]

boy, this must really be a controversial topic!! P.S. - I went to town today to buy parts for the combine, and I saw an ESCALADE with farm plates.- now if that isn't abuse, I do not know what is. This is indefensible....I get riled up about it and I'm a farmer....imagine how urbanites feel when they see that?

Speaking of lining up at the trough for gov't spending, the way these disaster payments are paid out, lots of money is given to people who actually do not need the money. IE hobby farmers- as they lack the means to actually make a living on the farm so they have an off farm job. This does not sit well with urbanites, as people they may work with are getting these thousands of dollars in assistance just because they have a small farm. Another injustice in the past was the crow rate payment, wich was payed to the landowners...the guys actually farming the land was out of luck. With this new program, fulltime farmers may be spared in the lean years from going bankrupt by giving them a net income of 15 - 25K. City folk know that the most ANY farmer will get is 25K due to a total crop loss. - Gee, welfare family cases get more in some provinces. AS long as it is not a reacurring theme for the same farmers year after year, I do not have a problem with this. I know its a subsidy, but with the way prices and inputs are, It may save quite a few farms this year.