New farm aid program

[WoolyBear]

I will agree with coppertop that we should all be working together in this industry. I really shocked me to see the comments on this thread. Its not much wonder some small towns are having such a time keep their young folks around. Too many of the "more important citizens" think just that, and it turns alot of people off. If anyone has the guts to get up at a meeting, for the eventual benefit of the industry..... My sincerest THANK YOU!!!

My own thought in this is we have to first do what works for our situation, and at the same time we try to help the industry that we are participating.

According to kpb, we (ourselves) must be hobby farmers. Our total gross is well over 2x the $50000 level. Our net however because of low commodity prices,and high imput expenses, plus medical attention that was required........ will likely print us a cheque in this new program. Add then to this the necessary loan payments to expand and maintain our farm. Its a necessary evil that some of the "hobby farmers" choose not to go through beyond a certain level. We don't all want to spend 24/7 on a combine, and we don't wish to need to hire a 1/2 dozen laborers to run a bigger enterprise.
An off farm job........ could very easily end up costing you more money than it makes. The extra attention you can give your farm without it could only mean a better farm operation.

Like someone said, none of us asked for this,most of us simply want to be able to continue producing to our own level of investment........ and let me tell you this, our committment to this industry that we call agriculture is FULL TIME!!!!

[cowman]

Well coppertop, one thing you should realize is maybe the reclamation guy finally had an "AHA" moment? He might have finally got over the idea he was someone special?
I had one old boy give me the gears about how "shameful" it was that I was in business? I told him" Oh yeah...how much are your investments paying you...because your farming income sure as hell aren't paying your bills!...Strange...I never got much of an answer??? I also told him he could go to hell if he thought my old man was so stupid to think the way he did!...I doubt I was all that popular...but then... do I care?...My momma never raised no fools!
Bottom line is this: We all come into this world with nothing. How we live our lives...and what we make...is nobodies business but ours? If I want to raise cows at a loss it is no bodies business but my own? If anyone one wants to bitch about how I have an unfair advantage over them because of how I choose to conduct my business life, different than them...then I would suggest they get into a "protected" industry like chickens or milk? Then they can pretend they are capitalists, instead of free enterprizers?
Maybe I am mistaken, but doesn't the marketplace say "Whoever, can supply at the lowest rate...owns the market?"

[cowman]

Wooley bear: I too am a "hobby farmer"...not based on profit or loss...just because I make more money at something else other than farming!
Funny though...I've never posted a loss(well other than a smart accountant!) with agriculture.
I ,like you am expanding? Now in my case I will admit, reluctantly! What can you do? My son( my life, my joy) wants to do this thing! Who am I to deny him this choice?
320 acres two years ago, another 160 this year(I shudder at the price!)!
Sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and hope like hell they know what they are doing? I suspect he does.

[coppertop]

And this industry isn't unlike many others who bite the bullet and help the younger generation get into the family business, hoping they know what they are doing, and they usually do if they have had common sense and a work ethic instilled in them from day one !

Just had a visit with the neighbour out by the road. He and his son were moving bulls, very reluctant bulls I might add, and stopped to shut my gate lest the bulls decided to do a walkabout in my flower beds ! Neighbour used to have a PMU barn but got bought out, and invested in cheap cows in the fall of 2003. He now has 360 cows, works day and night and looks like he has aged 20 years. He said ' anyone that tells you bigger is better is either a fool or has been into the hooch".

Funny thing in this community is that the people who have the largest land holdings, most cattle and most work to do at home are the first ones to drop everything and help a neighbour if they need a hand. I guess its called being part of a community....no-one gives a damn how many cattle the neighbour owns or where else he may derive an income. Dad always said the people that seemed to feel the need to criticize or look down their noses were the ones who were the most dissatisfied with their own lot !!!

[kpb]

I'm leaving tonight for the northern ranch so won't be around for a while for you guys to kick around but will make a couple of points.

Firstly, coppertop and cowman, it's not just me who is saying that the $50,000 gross income level is the minimum needed to be considered a commercial operation. The government is bringing in this level as a minimum level that they consider as a a qualifying level for future programs. So I guess the feds are mean spirited too, according to your thinking?

Secondly nicolass is right--the more money that is spent on small, hobby farms by the feds through support payments, the less there is for viable operations. I think what the fed government is saying in their latest announcements is that they are only prepared to support viable, commercial operations because they believe that these operations are, in fact, the ag industry. I agree with that premise.

Thirdly, I think if two-thirds of the farmers in this country are hobby farmers, I would suggest to you that that is one of the big reasons that the commercial farmers have low margins. I think the feds are saying that these two thirds can go away, or be re-trained, or maybe just enjoy their hobby. But don't expect to be included as part of the industry.

Someone in the above threads asked if they qualify as a hobby farmer. The feds have made it quite clear that if your farm does not gross $50,000 you are not a viable operation or are a hobby farm. I agree with this also.

I do agree with coppertop on one thing. There's sure been a lot of useless air on this one. I don't care about SUV driving, local vets, what your neighbours say, etc. etc. etc.

What is the bottom line is that the feds have said that their future programs will only apply to those farms that gross $50,000 or more. I wish it was $100,000 but it's a start. I think the hobby farmers should simply enjoy their hobby. Is that too much to ask? I mean all the stamp collectors in the country don't whine and gnash their teeth about not getting government support. I guess they just must be missing the boat.

Finally, coppertop or emerald or whoever you are. I'm pretty sure that I'm not small minded or any of the other things you object to. It's just that me and my commercial ranching friends don't want to be represented to the government or anyone else by someone who knows little about running a cattle business. Call me crazy but I like my representatives to have an actual idea of what it's like to run a cattle business that strives to make enough money to support a family, year over year.

Finally, it's been my observation that some people just seem to have a need to represent other folks. I quite often hear politicians say they were forced to run by overwhelming pressure from their supporters. This has always struck me as bizarre. I think people who say this are really just people who can't live without being in the spotlight. Same as people who name drop with people they've met to try to impress. Most of us common people don't need a whole lot of representation and most of the people who put themselves forward, over and over and over again, as representatives, would do well to step back for a time or so and examine their motives.

Have a nice August everyone. Back in the fall.

kpb

[coppertop]

I have never indicated that I had a problem with the $50,000 threshold. My point in all this diatribe has been to point out that people involved in smaller operations are just as concerned about the viablity of industry as the larger operations, even if some of their income is derived from other sources.

At any rate, we all can agree to disagree, there are far more important issues facing the industry, particularily in parts of our province where a horrible hail storm went through this afternoon causing vast amounts of damage. Had that happen here two years ago, and I sympathize with anyone who had damage to crops and property .

[blackjack]

...well personally i'm on kpb side on this issue...i am only going to add one point if a producer is sitting around hoping government is going to solve their problems they will be severly disappointed... i imagine everyone would agree whats best for one operation may not be the answer for the either...in other words i don't see much happening other than a few more bureaucrats being paid to figure out that they don't have a clue how to solve the problem in the first place... gotta go ... had 6 inches of hail last night so had better go see how restless the grassers are...

[coppertop]

blackjack, its extremely unfortunate that there are SIDES to this issue. For the life of me I don't know why there is, but this isn't the only issue where folks on this site are divided.

We have had comments from folks in Sask. wanting Albertans to stay on this side of the border and not buy land in Sask.
We have folks in Montana that don't want our cows or hay down there.
And now we have folks in the same industry in the same province that feel only the larger producer has knowledge enough about the commercial industry to dare air views about it.
Rather than take shots at each other we should recognize that there are many people who do not own a farm and never did, living on country residential developments everywhere that have the ear of government, and many of them are making noises about their tax dollars going to prop up the agriculture industry.

My MLA has told me many times that there are about 8 MLA's in Alberta that really understand the issues the industry is facing, and whenever any assistance to agriculture is discussed in caucus it takes a lot of arm twisting by those few MLA's to get the support of the others who represent mainly urban or urbanized folks. Mind you, next time I meet my MLA, which is next week, I am going to ask him if he thinks I should cease and desist any lobbying for the ag industry....because what in hell would I know !!!!
I do agree blackjack, anyone sitting around waiting for assistance from the government will get old and grey before it happens.

[blackjack]

...overall on most things i agree with you coppertop ...but from reading your posts would it not be fair to say your area is still predominately agricultured based...while here in central alberta we are getting inudated with people moving into the countryside that don't have a clue about agriculture...and then they start to whine about us bigger producers and our operations...this is where i personally get upset coppertop when our fellow producers also like to start to point fingers...whether we like it or not govt policy has made us full time farmers increase in size to keep up to the ever shrinking margins... as you know coppertop the agriculture landscape is quickly changing and we all will need to adjust to it...in saying that i do thankyou for your time you put into promoting agriculture and that you also want agriculture to be a sustainable industry...

[coppertop]

blackjack, in this area you are correct in assuming that agriculture is not the industry that drives the economy, however, due to the rain fall and grass/forage growing potential there are numerous large cattle operations that are full time farms.
There is opposition to large operations because people who reside in country residential/hamlet, and yes, even some members of the agricultural community not wanting to ENDURE the sounds and smells of the livestock industry.
When I was on our local county council I found that whenever one farmer objected to something another was doing, there was usually a long HISTORY between the two that had nothing to do with hauling and spreading manure !!!
Larger livestock operations meet resistance in many locales, not just in central AB. The Peace Region has several large groups who vehemently oppose any proposed large livestock operation, hogs or cattle. The reason being for the most part that there have been a few operators that haven't really made an attempt to put their best foot forward in that region so every potential operator is tarred with the same brush.

WIth the growth our province is experiencing, and the huge influx of people to rural areas, I fear that the agricultural industry is going to see inceased complaints, and objections to generally accepted farming practices such as chemical spraying, manure spreading etc., as rural Alberta is populated with more and more people who have no understanding of our industry.