New farm aid program

[nicolaas]

This program sure appears interesting. The "sundowners" (s per Kpb )would not be helped with this program as it includes off farm income into the mix, and most people make more than 15K to 25k per year with their farm income and off farm income. I believe that your farm undergoes a gov't assessment as well that may help in profitablility. But ,I believe that 50K is even to low to expect to make 25k net. I know with fuel, land taxes, fencing, repairs, land payments, etc. you are living pretty thin. THis program probably is a good fit for old retired couples who are just putzen around,everything payed for, not adding anything to their farm, and living out thier days. For full time large farms this program will be a godsend though in the bad years. With 25k you can put groceries on the table, and help with the kids tuitiion. Just watch, If too many people take part in this program, the GOv't will yank it, just like GRIP. My question....Should not CAIS be taking care of this?

One gov't program that should be modified is the purple fuel benefit for anyone who makes 10k on their farm. What a joke. I drive old beaters around for work trucks and see 70K suburbans and SUV driven around with farm plates. Bring up the trigger to 100K or at least to 50K and the gov't will save lots of money. YOu would get rid of at least 60-70% of 'farmers' in AB alone. If you use a brand new pickup /suurban/SUV for your farm truck, you usually are not in the business of farming. That is one of the biggest irritants to city people about "farmers", their use of purple gas. These hobby farmer people will still raise their 20 cows, 15 horses,1/4 section of hay etc, and will still buy horse trinkets and halter shanks from UFA, even if they lose the fuel benefit. THis will cut down in the number of "real " farmers and would mean that the next time the fed gov't gives out 1 billion in emergency aid, the people that need it (ie real farmers) will get an amount that may actually help.

[coppertop]

I drive an SUV and have a pickup but I do not have farm plates on the SUV and have never attempted to put them on it. In fact, I wasn't able to recoup the GST I paid on it because, according to the government EXPERT, SUV's are not considered farm vehicles so it is interesting if some people are using Farm plates and colored gas. I think that many urban folk have a very misguided view of exactly what farmers receive in subsidies.

The oil patch receives countless subsidies in the form of reduced royalties, drilling incentive programs have been used etc.

Forestry companies receive their FMA's for a song, so somewhere in all this it is unfair to point fingers at agriculture and feel that they are the only subsidized industry.

[kpb]

coppertop, running 50 head of cattle is not a full-time job--where do you get these ideas? For heaven's sake what do you do to fill a 35 hour week with 50 head of cattle right now?

I don't care about local vet, farm equipment dealers, etc. What has that got to do with anything we're talking about? The government has said that only farmers who gross $50,000 per year are entitled to enrol under their new program. I think that's right thinking because it seperates the hobby farmer from those of us who are trying to make a living here. If you can make a living off 50 or 30 or 10 cows great, I think that's wonderful but don't apply to the program unless your 50 cows generate 50,000 in revenue and don't whine about government support if you don't meet the threshold because, frankly, you're just not trying hard enough to make a living in this business if you don't hit the $50,000 mark. In my opinion the level should be at least $100,000 gross farm income to qualify.

And please don't think you represent me with your 50 head of cattle. Let me make this clear--you do not represent me or any of my friends who are large enough to support their families through agriculture. We have concerns that you, with your 50 head, have not even considered. Represent yourself and your hobby farmer friends but do not think you are representing commercial ranchers.

And please do not tell me that 50 head of cattle is a full-time job and lots of work. My 12 year old daughter can look after more than that and have time for play every day.


kpb

[cowman]

I really wonder if anyone will see any of this money? Lets face it the so-called "hobby farmer" probably has a higher income than the so-called "fulltimer" barely scraping by?
I often wonder who thinks they are getting such a great deal with dyed gasoline(deisel is different)? In reality you can cut a pretty decent deal at the cardlock and not have to own fuel storage, put up with crappy service etc.?
I think the time has just about come when the government should scrap the dyed fuel program as well as the farm license plate thing. Maybe time to get in the real world? Would end all the whining and percieved injustice?
I guess the big question is who should get government largesse? Maybe the best answer would be...nobody? If we don't want to pay for someone to indulge their hobby, or pay so someone who should be gone because they don't make enough...then why would we want to support the "landed gentry"? Do you ever wonder how fair is it that the worker at MacDonalds needs to subsidize the millionaire land owner?
Scrap it all and see who sinks or floats!
Personally I gave up relying on the government a long time ago. I consider them nothing more than a gang of crooks trying to cheat the people! And that goes for the latest group of liars that promised to scrap CAIS!

[coppertop]

I agree cowman, if anyone isn't making a decent living in their 'oil patch' job or business they change to one that does provide a living. I know that there are subsidies in all industries but it doesn't seem to matter what sort of program the government brings in for the agriculture industry it does not meet with approval of those within the industry.

I haven't applied for CAIS funding, although I am considered to be a FARMER regardless of what some on this site may think.

As far as being a hobby goes, I know the number of hours I put in on the farm, feeding cattle and calving, certainly its not 35 hours a week but it does take committment. I know many in this community that have 50-100 cows and work at full time jobs off the farm, they have machinery maintenance, haying, hauling feed, calving cows etc. to get done and for the most part if its the man of the house that works off the farm he has a good wife that does the farm work when he's away. In my area the 12 year old kids go to school during the day so aren't able to calve cows etc., mind you many of them rake hay, do chores before and after school etc., even when their parents may be considered hobby farmers.

The mindset that 'hobby farmers' have no right to speak for the industry is certainly shallow thinking, if all those involved in the industry, regardless of what size of an operation they had, would start speaking with one voice vs having one sector look down their nose at another group that are involved in the same industry perhaps governments would take this issue more seriously.

As far as died gas goes, I don't fill my tank anymore, I do as cowman suggests, and buy at the cardlock. I do get my died diesel tank filled but thats for the tractor only.

I might be small potatoes, hobby farming or whatever but one thing for sure is that the bank doesn't own me or my land. Maybe that is why I am not lined up at the public trough asking the government to subsidize my little hobby farm !!!!!!!

[nicolaas]

boy, this must really be a controversial topic!! P.S. - I went to town today to buy parts for the combine, and I saw an ESCALADE with farm plates.- now if that isn't abuse, I do not know what is. This is indefensible....I get riled up about it and I'm a farmer....imagine how urbanites feel when they see that?

Speaking of lining up at the trough for gov't spending, the way these disaster payments are paid out, lots of money is given to people who actually do not need the money. IE hobby farmers- as they lack the means to actually make a living on the farm so they have an off farm job. This does not sit well with urbanites, as people they may work with are getting these thousands of dollars in assistance just because they have a small farm. Another injustice in the past was the crow rate payment, wich was payed to the landowners...the guys actually farming the land was out of luck. With this new program, fulltime farmers may be spared in the lean years from going bankrupt by giving them a net income of 15 - 25K. City folk know that the most ANY farmer will get is 25K due to a total crop loss. - Gee, welfare family cases get more in some provinces. AS long as it is not a reacurring theme for the same farmers year after year, I do not have a problem with this. I know its a subsidy, but with the way prices and inputs are, It may save quite a few farms this year.

[coppertop]

nicolaas we hear somewhat similar comments on this site from those who feel that grazing leases and the oil revenue derived therein are 'welfare' payments to the agriculture industry !!
At anytime that I have been in a position to represent the livestock industry in meetings, lobby efforts etc., I represent the entire industry not just my own small operation.

When aim is taken at smaller operators, it may be a good idea to remember that there are many more such operations than there are large ones, and each of the 'hobby farmers' is a constituent of a provincial MLA, each of the 'hobby farmers' pay taxes to a municipality within the province. In many cases they pay far more property tax because they do not have the large land base which in fact, lowers the assessment on their house and their residence and three acre site.

Less than two months ago I was approached by three large livestock operators ( 1. 1200 mother cows, and a 2000 backgrounding operation, 2. a 500 mother cow and 1600 head backgrounding operation and 3. a 400 mother cow, 800 head backgrounding operation and a large custom grazing operation) to make a presentation on their behalf to our local county council with respect to a proposed land use change that would be detrimental to the larger operations should they wish to expand in the future,

The proposed change didnt' concern me personally because it would have no affect on my ' hobby farm', but it would certainly pose a major concern to any existing confined feeding operation. They asked my assistance because I have a clear understanding of provincial legislation, a knowledge of local bylaws and policies, and above all because if I made a presentation it would be with the overall good of the livestock industry in mind vs my own small corner of it.
I prepared the presentation, presented it to council, all voluntarily, all costs of time and inputs were out of my pocket. I did so because I have a committment to the viability of the industry and also to rural Alberta. I may be scorned by some because I don't have a large operation but in all my years of community service the people that have come forward to help in many areas are those who are mature and sophisticated enough to realize that the only way the agricultural industry can continue to remain viable is to speak with one voice.

[kpb]

yeah well the problem coppertop is that the hobby farmers and the commercial cowmen are not in the same industry at all. So please do not think that because you have a few cows you have the right or ability to speak for people who are trying to make a living with cows.

The hobby farmer is interested in indulging his interests--that's fine but it sure doesn't mean that they are "one" with the commercial ranchers. Anymore than I can represent Tiger Woods when it comes to golf.

So you do not represent the commercial cattleman and you are sure not in the same industry. And, no, we cannot speak with one voice as long as anyone with a few bovines thinks they can speak for the whole industry. As a full-time rancher who has been in the business a long time I would ask you and all the other hobby farmers out there to just tend to your animals and not try to be a spokesman for the commercial cattleman. As I said before the full-timer has issues that you haven't dreamed of.

Or do you think I should speak for Tiger on how to handle a professional round of golf?


kpb

[nicolaas]

I agree with you on the grazing lease oil revenue. YOur renting the land, so why get revenue that is actually the publics? If you are, then it is a subsidy, definitely. Grasing leases are subsidized grass...call it what it is, don't try to say it isn't so. I would sure like subsidized grass myself. I do not begrudge hobby farmers, but they are in it for the lifestyle. If you are expanding to make it a fulltime operation, then you obviously have to have an off-farm job. I know I did, and still do occaisionally My only issue is small farms recieving cheques that may be better spent on the farms that have no off farm income. That is my only issue. Disaster programs sound huge, but are spread to thin. That is why I think this new program (from my limited knowlege about it)seems to be the answer as most people would not dream of living off of 25K for a family (including all forms of income) unless a disaster has occured. If more money is required, get a job or quit. ALso only families that really need it will recieve it (I think)- and not year after year. Getting bent out of shape because you don't gross 50K on your farm, make some more sacrifices and buy some more land, expand, etc. Don't gripe about it.You are obviously use to working out anyways, so keep doing what your doing. But I think most couples will still net more that 25K as who wants to live in poverty year after year..one will still work. A small car costs 20K these days, $100 per fill for a pickup, 50K is not going to cut it. It isn't 1975 anymore. As far as saying hobby farmers are not as important as regular farmers, I disagree. It helps pay the taxes. Just do not expect to make a living off of 70 cows. It is impossible - and there is no reason to not have a off farm job, a guy can't stay busy enough to justify it.

[coppertop]

kpb, the only time I have spoken on behalf of the commercial industry is when I have been asked to do so by players in the industry who like youself have been involved for many years, have large operations and have a vested interest in carrying on in the industry through the generations. My own involvement in the industry has given me a basic knowledge of the cattle business, of knowing good cattle and of the downside of the industry.

It is unfortunate that many people who do voluntarily become involved in organizations that lobby for the betterment of the industry are looked down upon by a select few arrogant, small minded individuals who seem to feel their inflated opinion of their own operation gives them the right to indermine the work and dedication others have given to help the cause of the industry.

Perhaps when I was making a presentation to the Farm Land Assessment Review Board several years ago, I should have encouraged the immediate implementation of the foot print concept where farmers will be taxed on the size of corrals, feedlot pens, hog and dairy barns etc. vs lobbying as loud as I possibly could against that happening.Because I didn't have a feedlot or large cattle operation it would not have affected me one bit had the taxes on those operations quadrupled, but, my concern for the viability of the industry was the guiding principle for my presentation.

It is unfortunate the some of the good people do by voicing their concerns for the entire industry will benefit those who criticize their efforts without even having the slightest idea of what knowledge the person or persons have, what contributions they have made and what understanding they have of the industry as a whole.

I didn't need to own a fleet of Oil industry tank trucks or service rigs to meet with a total of four provincial transportation ministers over the years to lobby on behalf of that industry for changes to highway maintenance, improved intersection treatments, etc. I was at the table at the invitation of the industry, because obviously they felt that those of us who participated in the meetings gave their cause some credibility.

I certainly do not want to represent or speak on behalf of your operation, but I do want to continue to work whenever possible for the betterment of the agriculture industry as a whole and most particulary the livestock sector where I have had a 30 year involvement. I wonder how many cattle producers would be left of those with 50 or less head of cattle exited the industry. My bet is the numbers would be cut down by 2/3.

I would suggest that those who feel only larger operations have any merit or standing within the agriculture framework, are a huge minority. The vast majority of ranchers anf feedlot opertors I know are well aware that they need the smaller producer lobbying side by side with them to bring about any positive changes within ag policy.

[coppertop]

nicolaas, I agree with most of what you say. In my case our cattle operation at one time was 75 mother cows, we had no debt. We had an oilfield service business and the income derived from it made it possible for us to build our operation and keep free of debt. When my husband became ill and after his death the cattle had to sustain not only themselves but me as well. I have only worked at a real job for four years out of the 17 I have been farming alone. The income I derived from the local county council was a per day rate, with no benefits and small compensation for vehicle use. By managing well and controlling input costs I have been able to maintain a reasonable quality of life. During the past four years I have been employed full time, have farmed my cows out for calving with the exception of this past year when I took vacation days to calve them.

I certainly realize that my operation is small, but that does not mean I am any less committed to the industry, and I can assure you that the entire subsidies I have received over the past 17 years wouldn't fill my vehicle too many times.

I did not apply for CAIS funding, have never had a grazing lease nor have I sent my cows to the local grazing reserve.

It hurts my pocketbook when I fill my diesel tank, and likely prorated it hurts just as much based on the small income I derive from my cattle as it does my neighbour with his 1200 cows and his much higher input costs. He also has much higher returns from his operation.

[furrowtickler]

Wow a heated debate, good to see.
A little tid bit for all on this farm program. Am i a 'hobby farmer'? I gross more than $50,000, but lost money the last 4 years. I personaly farm only 480 ac of cropland, but run a farm of 4500ac. My wife is a teacher and has to put up with more B.S. than me but brings home a descent wage. So I do not fit any criteria at all, but lose money as a farmer, run a $400,000 to $600,000 buget on the main farm and am still considered a hobby farmer by some. BTW, who should benifit from this program anyway? I also run a seed business off the farm which generates some income as well so I will never qualify for any benifits. My point is that that we should all be be able to make a profit off the land without govt farm assistance if the world would only pay the real value for food. Off farm income should never be accounted ever. Most of us should not have too work 2 or 3 jobs "just to make a living" in the first place. Anyway time to go to bed - mens golf night!!!