New farm aid program

[coppertop]

nicolaas we hear somewhat similar comments on this site from those who feel that grazing leases and the oil revenue derived therein are 'welfare' payments to the agriculture industry !!
At anytime that I have been in a position to represent the livestock industry in meetings, lobby efforts etc., I represent the entire industry not just my own small operation.

When aim is taken at smaller operators, it may be a good idea to remember that there are many more such operations than there are large ones, and each of the 'hobby farmers' is a constituent of a provincial MLA, each of the 'hobby farmers' pay taxes to a municipality within the province. In many cases they pay far more property tax because they do not have the large land base which in fact, lowers the assessment on their house and their residence and three acre site.

Less than two months ago I was approached by three large livestock operators ( 1. 1200 mother cows, and a 2000 backgrounding operation, 2. a 500 mother cow and 1600 head backgrounding operation and 3. a 400 mother cow, 800 head backgrounding operation and a large custom grazing operation) to make a presentation on their behalf to our local county council with respect to a proposed land use change that would be detrimental to the larger operations should they wish to expand in the future,

The proposed change didnt' concern me personally because it would have no affect on my ' hobby farm', but it would certainly pose a major concern to any existing confined feeding operation. They asked my assistance because I have a clear understanding of provincial legislation, a knowledge of local bylaws and policies, and above all because if I made a presentation it would be with the overall good of the livestock industry in mind vs my own small corner of it.
I prepared the presentation, presented it to council, all voluntarily, all costs of time and inputs were out of my pocket. I did so because I have a committment to the viability of the industry and also to rural Alberta. I may be scorned by some because I don't have a large operation but in all my years of community service the people that have come forward to help in many areas are those who are mature and sophisticated enough to realize that the only way the agricultural industry can continue to remain viable is to speak with one voice.

[kpb]

yeah well the problem coppertop is that the hobby farmers and the commercial cowmen are not in the same industry at all. So please do not think that because you have a few cows you have the right or ability to speak for people who are trying to make a living with cows.

The hobby farmer is interested in indulging his interests--that's fine but it sure doesn't mean that they are "one" with the commercial ranchers. Anymore than I can represent Tiger Woods when it comes to golf.

So you do not represent the commercial cattleman and you are sure not in the same industry. And, no, we cannot speak with one voice as long as anyone with a few bovines thinks they can speak for the whole industry. As a full-time rancher who has been in the business a long time I would ask you and all the other hobby farmers out there to just tend to your animals and not try to be a spokesman for the commercial cattleman. As I said before the full-timer has issues that you haven't dreamed of.

Or do you think I should speak for Tiger on how to handle a professional round of golf?


kpb

[nicolaas]

I agree with you on the grazing lease oil revenue. YOur renting the land, so why get revenue that is actually the publics? If you are, then it is a subsidy, definitely. Grasing leases are subsidized grass...call it what it is, don't try to say it isn't so. I would sure like subsidized grass myself. I do not begrudge hobby farmers, but they are in it for the lifestyle. If you are expanding to make it a fulltime operation, then you obviously have to have an off-farm job. I know I did, and still do occaisionally My only issue is small farms recieving cheques that may be better spent on the farms that have no off farm income. That is my only issue. Disaster programs sound huge, but are spread to thin. That is why I think this new program (from my limited knowlege about it)seems to be the answer as most people would not dream of living off of 25K for a family (including all forms of income) unless a disaster has occured. If more money is required, get a job or quit. ALso only families that really need it will recieve it (I think)- and not year after year. Getting bent out of shape because you don't gross 50K on your farm, make some more sacrifices and buy some more land, expand, etc. Don't gripe about it.You are obviously use to working out anyways, so keep doing what your doing. But I think most couples will still net more that 25K as who wants to live in poverty year after year..one will still work. A small car costs 20K these days, $100 per fill for a pickup, 50K is not going to cut it. It isn't 1975 anymore. As far as saying hobby farmers are not as important as regular farmers, I disagree. It helps pay the taxes. Just do not expect to make a living off of 70 cows. It is impossible - and there is no reason to not have a off farm job, a guy can't stay busy enough to justify it.

[coppertop]

kpb, the only time I have spoken on behalf of the commercial industry is when I have been asked to do so by players in the industry who like youself have been involved for many years, have large operations and have a vested interest in carrying on in the industry through the generations. My own involvement in the industry has given me a basic knowledge of the cattle business, of knowing good cattle and of the downside of the industry.

It is unfortunate that many people who do voluntarily become involved in organizations that lobby for the betterment of the industry are looked down upon by a select few arrogant, small minded individuals who seem to feel their inflated opinion of their own operation gives them the right to indermine the work and dedication others have given to help the cause of the industry.

Perhaps when I was making a presentation to the Farm Land Assessment Review Board several years ago, I should have encouraged the immediate implementation of the foot print concept where farmers will be taxed on the size of corrals, feedlot pens, hog and dairy barns etc. vs lobbying as loud as I possibly could against that happening.Because I didn't have a feedlot or large cattle operation it would not have affected me one bit had the taxes on those operations quadrupled, but, my concern for the viability of the industry was the guiding principle for my presentation.

It is unfortunate the some of the good people do by voicing their concerns for the entire industry will benefit those who criticize their efforts without even having the slightest idea of what knowledge the person or persons have, what contributions they have made and what understanding they have of the industry as a whole.

I didn't need to own a fleet of Oil industry tank trucks or service rigs to meet with a total of four provincial transportation ministers over the years to lobby on behalf of that industry for changes to highway maintenance, improved intersection treatments, etc. I was at the table at the invitation of the industry, because obviously they felt that those of us who participated in the meetings gave their cause some credibility.

I certainly do not want to represent or speak on behalf of your operation, but I do want to continue to work whenever possible for the betterment of the agriculture industry as a whole and most particulary the livestock sector where I have had a 30 year involvement. I wonder how many cattle producers would be left of those with 50 or less head of cattle exited the industry. My bet is the numbers would be cut down by 2/3.

I would suggest that those who feel only larger operations have any merit or standing within the agriculture framework, are a huge minority. The vast majority of ranchers anf feedlot opertors I know are well aware that they need the smaller producer lobbying side by side with them to bring about any positive changes within ag policy.

[coppertop]

nicolaas, I agree with most of what you say. In my case our cattle operation at one time was 75 mother cows, we had no debt. We had an oilfield service business and the income derived from it made it possible for us to build our operation and keep free of debt. When my husband became ill and after his death the cattle had to sustain not only themselves but me as well. I have only worked at a real job for four years out of the 17 I have been farming alone. The income I derived from the local county council was a per day rate, with no benefits and small compensation for vehicle use. By managing well and controlling input costs I have been able to maintain a reasonable quality of life. During the past four years I have been employed full time, have farmed my cows out for calving with the exception of this past year when I took vacation days to calve them.

I certainly realize that my operation is small, but that does not mean I am any less committed to the industry, and I can assure you that the entire subsidies I have received over the past 17 years wouldn't fill my vehicle too many times.

I did not apply for CAIS funding, have never had a grazing lease nor have I sent my cows to the local grazing reserve.

It hurts my pocketbook when I fill my diesel tank, and likely prorated it hurts just as much based on the small income I derive from my cattle as it does my neighbour with his 1200 cows and his much higher input costs. He also has much higher returns from his operation.

[furrowtickler]

Wow a heated debate, good to see.
A little tid bit for all on this farm program. Am i a 'hobby farmer'? I gross more than $50,000, but lost money the last 4 years. I personaly farm only 480 ac of cropland, but run a farm of 4500ac. My wife is a teacher and has to put up with more B.S. than me but brings home a descent wage. So I do not fit any criteria at all, but lose money as a farmer, run a $400,000 to $600,000 buget on the main farm and am still considered a hobby farmer by some. BTW, who should benifit from this program anyway? I also run a seed business off the farm which generates some income as well so I will never qualify for any benifits. My point is that that we should all be be able to make a profit off the land without govt farm assistance if the world would only pay the real value for food. Off farm income should never be accounted ever. Most of us should not have too work 2 or 3 jobs "just to make a living" in the first place. Anyway time to go to bed - mens golf night!!!

[cowman]

I guess if the marketplace can't support an industry...then the question needs to be asked: Should that industry be propped up and allowed to continue? Are subsidies the answer?
Don't get me wrong here...everyone in Canada is on the government tit to one extent or another! Its called living in the socialist welfare state...which is just peachy except for one thing...it really doesn't work!
When the state takes care of you from cradle to grave, it owns you? When the "majority" is more important than the individual, you are on the road to slavery!
The truly successful economies of the past were built on individual initiative and "small" government that got the hell out of the way of people to live their lives as they saw fit and be responsible for themselves!
Ask yourself this: Does the government really need to be involved in education, healthcare, social injustices? Do they really need to tax us at a rate approaching 70% of GDP? We sure seem to be paying a lot to have the government cuddle and control us?

[coppertop]

After giving a lot of thought to the issue some seem to have with smaller operations, I have a suggestion.

If you feel that folks with less than a certain number ( 30, 50 ) cows are just hobby farmers, why not table a resolution at your local ABP zone this fall indicating that those producers with less than your magic number of cattle should have a vote or any say with respect to the cattle industry. Of course, IF the resolution passed, which it will not, then all of us who are considered by some to be hobby farmers won't have to pay a check off either. As long as we do, then cow for cow we have as much to say as the BIG BOYS !!!

What a total waste of air this entire discussion has been. All because some folks are in a snit because others make a few bucks off their farm. I say that whatever it takes to keep an operation going, whether that is having an off farm business, having one partner work full time off the farm etc. The only person that should concern is that particular producer and his family.

[cowman]

emerald...oops sorry coppertop!...you need to chill out! Until we become a total commie state, anyone who has the desire to raise cattle can! Despite the "full timers" who might want to dictate to you?
But hey, this hasn't been a totally useless thread? It sure brought out all the resentments of the so called "landed gentry" who think the marketplace owes them a living?
Fact is, if you are dumb enough to think you can live the life of Riley by being the big "purist" in agriculture...well good luck...and enjoy living in poverty!
A buck is a buck...whether it comes from a cow, a bushel of grain or a hay bale...or a job...or a business?
The ones who will be standing at the end of the day are the ones who understand that?....Duh...its called business? You don't keep flogging a dead horse?

[coppertop]

Cowman, I get very ticked off when anyone sector of an industry takes a run at another, we are all in the same industry for GODSAKE !!

Almost as infantile as the person that drives the big SUV telling the guy in the Smart Car that they don't have as much right to the highway, oras much right to make suggestions to the government on how it should be maintained !!!!!

I have seen a few big operations come and go in my time in agriculture. Some of them thought they were fairly important, didn't much associate with us peons. Actually, one of them ended up running a service truck for a reclaimation firm that was hauling out old flare pit contents on a lease here a few years back. Funny, the guy was friendly has heck, like I was a long lost friend !!!

I kind of think the mindset of some is that there will be a lot more of any government program to go around if there aren't any small operations or if anyone with an off farm income doesn't qualify.

[WoolyBear]

I will agree with coppertop that we should all be working together in this industry. I really shocked me to see the comments on this thread. Its not much wonder some small towns are having such a time keep their young folks around. Too many of the "more important citizens" think just that, and it turns alot of people off. If anyone has the guts to get up at a meeting, for the eventual benefit of the industry..... My sincerest THANK YOU!!!

My own thought in this is we have to first do what works for our situation, and at the same time we try to help the industry that we are participating.

According to kpb, we (ourselves) must be hobby farmers. Our total gross is well over 2x the $50000 level. Our net however because of low commodity prices,and high imput expenses, plus medical attention that was required........ will likely print us a cheque in this new program. Add then to this the necessary loan payments to expand and maintain our farm. Its a necessary evil that some of the "hobby farmers" choose not to go through beyond a certain level. We don't all want to spend 24/7 on a combine, and we don't wish to need to hire a 1/2 dozen laborers to run a bigger enterprise.
An off farm job........ could very easily end up costing you more money than it makes. The extra attention you can give your farm without it could only mean a better farm operation.

Like someone said, none of us asked for this,most of us simply want to be able to continue producing to our own level of investment........ and let me tell you this, our committment to this industry that we call agriculture is FULL TIME!!!!

[cowman]

Well coppertop, one thing you should realize is maybe the reclamation guy finally had an "AHA" moment? He might have finally got over the idea he was someone special?
I had one old boy give me the gears about how "shameful" it was that I was in business? I told him" Oh yeah...how much are your investments paying you...because your farming income sure as hell aren't paying your bills!...Strange...I never got much of an answer??? I also told him he could go to hell if he thought my old man was so stupid to think the way he did!...I doubt I was all that popular...but then... do I care?...My momma never raised no fools!
Bottom line is this: We all come into this world with nothing. How we live our lives...and what we make...is nobodies business but ours? If I want to raise cows at a loss it is no bodies business but my own? If anyone one wants to bitch about how I have an unfair advantage over them because of how I choose to conduct my business life, different than them...then I would suggest they get into a "protected" industry like chickens or milk? Then they can pretend they are capitalists, instead of free enterprizers?
Maybe I am mistaken, but doesn't the marketplace say "Whoever, can supply at the lowest rate...owns the market?"

[cowman]

Wooley bear: I too am a "hobby farmer"...not based on profit or loss...just because I make more money at something else other than farming!
Funny though...I've never posted a loss(well other than a smart accountant!) with agriculture.
I ,like you am expanding? Now in my case I will admit, reluctantly! What can you do? My son( my life, my joy) wants to do this thing! Who am I to deny him this choice?
320 acres two years ago, another 160 this year(I shudder at the price!)!
Sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and hope like hell they know what they are doing? I suspect he does.

[coppertop]

And this industry isn't unlike many others who bite the bullet and help the younger generation get into the family business, hoping they know what they are doing, and they usually do if they have had common sense and a work ethic instilled in them from day one !

Just had a visit with the neighbour out by the road. He and his son were moving bulls, very reluctant bulls I might add, and stopped to shut my gate lest the bulls decided to do a walkabout in my flower beds ! Neighbour used to have a PMU barn but got bought out, and invested in cheap cows in the fall of 2003. He now has 360 cows, works day and night and looks like he has aged 20 years. He said ' anyone that tells you bigger is better is either a fool or has been into the hooch".

Funny thing in this community is that the people who have the largest land holdings, most cattle and most work to do at home are the first ones to drop everything and help a neighbour if they need a hand. I guess its called being part of a community....no-one gives a damn how many cattle the neighbour owns or where else he may derive an income. Dad always said the people that seemed to feel the need to criticize or look down their noses were the ones who were the most dissatisfied with their own lot !!!

[kpb]

I'm leaving tonight for the northern ranch so won't be around for a while for you guys to kick around but will make a couple of points.

Firstly, coppertop and cowman, it's not just me who is saying that the $50,000 gross income level is the minimum needed to be considered a commercial operation. The government is bringing in this level as a minimum level that they consider as a a qualifying level for future programs. So I guess the feds are mean spirited too, according to your thinking?

Secondly nicolass is right--the more money that is spent on small, hobby farms by the feds through support payments, the less there is for viable operations. I think what the fed government is saying in their latest announcements is that they are only prepared to support viable, commercial operations because they believe that these operations are, in fact, the ag industry. I agree with that premise.

Thirdly, I think if two-thirds of the farmers in this country are hobby farmers, I would suggest to you that that is one of the big reasons that the commercial farmers have low margins. I think the feds are saying that these two thirds can go away, or be re-trained, or maybe just enjoy their hobby. But don't expect to be included as part of the industry.

Someone in the above threads asked if they qualify as a hobby farmer. The feds have made it quite clear that if your farm does not gross $50,000 you are not a viable operation or are a hobby farm. I agree with this also.

I do agree with coppertop on one thing. There's sure been a lot of useless air on this one. I don't care about SUV driving, local vets, what your neighbours say, etc. etc. etc.

What is the bottom line is that the feds have said that their future programs will only apply to those farms that gross $50,000 or more. I wish it was $100,000 but it's a start. I think the hobby farmers should simply enjoy their hobby. Is that too much to ask? I mean all the stamp collectors in the country don't whine and gnash their teeth about not getting government support. I guess they just must be missing the boat.

Finally, coppertop or emerald or whoever you are. I'm pretty sure that I'm not small minded or any of the other things you object to. It's just that me and my commercial ranching friends don't want to be represented to the government or anyone else by someone who knows little about running a cattle business. Call me crazy but I like my representatives to have an actual idea of what it's like to run a cattle business that strives to make enough money to support a family, year over year.

Finally, it's been my observation that some people just seem to have a need to represent other folks. I quite often hear politicians say they were forced to run by overwhelming pressure from their supporters. This has always struck me as bizarre. I think people who say this are really just people who can't live without being in the spotlight. Same as people who name drop with people they've met to try to impress. Most of us common people don't need a whole lot of representation and most of the people who put themselves forward, over and over and over again, as representatives, would do well to step back for a time or so and examine their motives.

Have a nice August everyone. Back in the fall.

kpb