New farm aid program

[cowman]

I guess if the marketplace can't support an industry...then the question needs to be asked: Should that industry be propped up and allowed to continue? Are subsidies the answer?
Don't get me wrong here...everyone in Canada is on the government tit to one extent or another! Its called living in the socialist welfare state...which is just peachy except for one thing...it really doesn't work!
When the state takes care of you from cradle to grave, it owns you? When the "majority" is more important than the individual, you are on the road to slavery!
The truly successful economies of the past were built on individual initiative and "small" government that got the hell out of the way of people to live their lives as they saw fit and be responsible for themselves!
Ask yourself this: Does the government really need to be involved in education, healthcare, social injustices? Do they really need to tax us at a rate approaching 70% of GDP? We sure seem to be paying a lot to have the government cuddle and control us?

[coppertop]

After giving a lot of thought to the issue some seem to have with smaller operations, I have a suggestion.

If you feel that folks with less than a certain number ( 30, 50 ) cows are just hobby farmers, why not table a resolution at your local ABP zone this fall indicating that those producers with less than your magic number of cattle should have a vote or any say with respect to the cattle industry. Of course, IF the resolution passed, which it will not, then all of us who are considered by some to be hobby farmers won't have to pay a check off either. As long as we do, then cow for cow we have as much to say as the BIG BOYS !!!

What a total waste of air this entire discussion has been. All because some folks are in a snit because others make a few bucks off their farm. I say that whatever it takes to keep an operation going, whether that is having an off farm business, having one partner work full time off the farm etc. The only person that should concern is that particular producer and his family.

[cowman]

emerald...oops sorry coppertop!...you need to chill out! Until we become a total commie state, anyone who has the desire to raise cattle can! Despite the "full timers" who might want to dictate to you?
But hey, this hasn't been a totally useless thread? It sure brought out all the resentments of the so called "landed gentry" who think the marketplace owes them a living?
Fact is, if you are dumb enough to think you can live the life of Riley by being the big "purist" in agriculture...well good luck...and enjoy living in poverty!
A buck is a buck...whether it comes from a cow, a bushel of grain or a hay bale...or a job...or a business?
The ones who will be standing at the end of the day are the ones who understand that?....Duh...its called business? You don't keep flogging a dead horse?

[coppertop]

Cowman, I get very ticked off when anyone sector of an industry takes a run at another, we are all in the same industry for GODSAKE !!

Almost as infantile as the person that drives the big SUV telling the guy in the Smart Car that they don't have as much right to the highway, oras much right to make suggestions to the government on how it should be maintained !!!!!

I have seen a few big operations come and go in my time in agriculture. Some of them thought they were fairly important, didn't much associate with us peons. Actually, one of them ended up running a service truck for a reclaimation firm that was hauling out old flare pit contents on a lease here a few years back. Funny, the guy was friendly has heck, like I was a long lost friend !!!

I kind of think the mindset of some is that there will be a lot more of any government program to go around if there aren't any small operations or if anyone with an off farm income doesn't qualify.

[WoolyBear]

I will agree with coppertop that we should all be working together in this industry. I really shocked me to see the comments on this thread. Its not much wonder some small towns are having such a time keep their young folks around. Too many of the "more important citizens" think just that, and it turns alot of people off. If anyone has the guts to get up at a meeting, for the eventual benefit of the industry..... My sincerest THANK YOU!!!

My own thought in this is we have to first do what works for our situation, and at the same time we try to help the industry that we are participating.

According to kpb, we (ourselves) must be hobby farmers. Our total gross is well over 2x the $50000 level. Our net however because of low commodity prices,and high imput expenses, plus medical attention that was required........ will likely print us a cheque in this new program. Add then to this the necessary loan payments to expand and maintain our farm. Its a necessary evil that some of the "hobby farmers" choose not to go through beyond a certain level. We don't all want to spend 24/7 on a combine, and we don't wish to need to hire a 1/2 dozen laborers to run a bigger enterprise.
An off farm job........ could very easily end up costing you more money than it makes. The extra attention you can give your farm without it could only mean a better farm operation.

Like someone said, none of us asked for this,most of us simply want to be able to continue producing to our own level of investment........ and let me tell you this, our committment to this industry that we call agriculture is FULL TIME!!!!

[cowman]

Well coppertop, one thing you should realize is maybe the reclamation guy finally had an "AHA" moment? He might have finally got over the idea he was someone special?
I had one old boy give me the gears about how "shameful" it was that I was in business? I told him" Oh yeah...how much are your investments paying you...because your farming income sure as hell aren't paying your bills!...Strange...I never got much of an answer??? I also told him he could go to hell if he thought my old man was so stupid to think the way he did!...I doubt I was all that popular...but then... do I care?...My momma never raised no fools!
Bottom line is this: We all come into this world with nothing. How we live our lives...and what we make...is nobodies business but ours? If I want to raise cows at a loss it is no bodies business but my own? If anyone one wants to bitch about how I have an unfair advantage over them because of how I choose to conduct my business life, different than them...then I would suggest they get into a "protected" industry like chickens or milk? Then they can pretend they are capitalists, instead of free enterprizers?
Maybe I am mistaken, but doesn't the marketplace say "Whoever, can supply at the lowest rate...owns the market?"

[cowman]

Wooley bear: I too am a "hobby farmer"...not based on profit or loss...just because I make more money at something else other than farming!
Funny though...I've never posted a loss(well other than a smart accountant!) with agriculture.
I ,like you am expanding? Now in my case I will admit, reluctantly! What can you do? My son( my life, my joy) wants to do this thing! Who am I to deny him this choice?
320 acres two years ago, another 160 this year(I shudder at the price!)!
Sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and hope like hell they know what they are doing? I suspect he does.

[coppertop]

And this industry isn't unlike many others who bite the bullet and help the younger generation get into the family business, hoping they know what they are doing, and they usually do if they have had common sense and a work ethic instilled in them from day one !

Just had a visit with the neighbour out by the road. He and his son were moving bulls, very reluctant bulls I might add, and stopped to shut my gate lest the bulls decided to do a walkabout in my flower beds ! Neighbour used to have a PMU barn but got bought out, and invested in cheap cows in the fall of 2003. He now has 360 cows, works day and night and looks like he has aged 20 years. He said ' anyone that tells you bigger is better is either a fool or has been into the hooch".

Funny thing in this community is that the people who have the largest land holdings, most cattle and most work to do at home are the first ones to drop everything and help a neighbour if they need a hand. I guess its called being part of a community....no-one gives a damn how many cattle the neighbour owns or where else he may derive an income. Dad always said the people that seemed to feel the need to criticize or look down their noses were the ones who were the most dissatisfied with their own lot !!!

[kpb]

I'm leaving tonight for the northern ranch so won't be around for a while for you guys to kick around but will make a couple of points.

Firstly, coppertop and cowman, it's not just me who is saying that the $50,000 gross income level is the minimum needed to be considered a commercial operation. The government is bringing in this level as a minimum level that they consider as a a qualifying level for future programs. So I guess the feds are mean spirited too, according to your thinking?

Secondly nicolass is right--the more money that is spent on small, hobby farms by the feds through support payments, the less there is for viable operations. I think what the fed government is saying in their latest announcements is that they are only prepared to support viable, commercial operations because they believe that these operations are, in fact, the ag industry. I agree with that premise.

Thirdly, I think if two-thirds of the farmers in this country are hobby farmers, I would suggest to you that that is one of the big reasons that the commercial farmers have low margins. I think the feds are saying that these two thirds can go away, or be re-trained, or maybe just enjoy their hobby. But don't expect to be included as part of the industry.

Someone in the above threads asked if they qualify as a hobby farmer. The feds have made it quite clear that if your farm does not gross $50,000 you are not a viable operation or are a hobby farm. I agree with this also.

I do agree with coppertop on one thing. There's sure been a lot of useless air on this one. I don't care about SUV driving, local vets, what your neighbours say, etc. etc. etc.

What is the bottom line is that the feds have said that their future programs will only apply to those farms that gross $50,000 or more. I wish it was $100,000 but it's a start. I think the hobby farmers should simply enjoy their hobby. Is that too much to ask? I mean all the stamp collectors in the country don't whine and gnash their teeth about not getting government support. I guess they just must be missing the boat.

Finally, coppertop or emerald or whoever you are. I'm pretty sure that I'm not small minded or any of the other things you object to. It's just that me and my commercial ranching friends don't want to be represented to the government or anyone else by someone who knows little about running a cattle business. Call me crazy but I like my representatives to have an actual idea of what it's like to run a cattle business that strives to make enough money to support a family, year over year.

Finally, it's been my observation that some people just seem to have a need to represent other folks. I quite often hear politicians say they were forced to run by overwhelming pressure from their supporters. This has always struck me as bizarre. I think people who say this are really just people who can't live without being in the spotlight. Same as people who name drop with people they've met to try to impress. Most of us common people don't need a whole lot of representation and most of the people who put themselves forward, over and over and over again, as representatives, would do well to step back for a time or so and examine their motives.

Have a nice August everyone. Back in the fall.

kpb

[coppertop]

I have never indicated that I had a problem with the $50,000 threshold. My point in all this diatribe has been to point out that people involved in smaller operations are just as concerned about the viablity of industry as the larger operations, even if some of their income is derived from other sources.

At any rate, we all can agree to disagree, there are far more important issues facing the industry, particularily in parts of our province where a horrible hail storm went through this afternoon causing vast amounts of damage. Had that happen here two years ago, and I sympathize with anyone who had damage to crops and property .

[blackjack]

...well personally i'm on kpb side on this issue...i am only going to add one point if a producer is sitting around hoping government is going to solve their problems they will be severly disappointed... i imagine everyone would agree whats best for one operation may not be the answer for the either...in other words i don't see much happening other than a few more bureaucrats being paid to figure out that they don't have a clue how to solve the problem in the first place... gotta go ... had 6 inches of hail last night so had better go see how restless the grassers are...

[coppertop]

blackjack, its extremely unfortunate that there are SIDES to this issue. For the life of me I don't know why there is, but this isn't the only issue where folks on this site are divided.

We have had comments from folks in Sask. wanting Albertans to stay on this side of the border and not buy land in Sask.
We have folks in Montana that don't want our cows or hay down there.
And now we have folks in the same industry in the same province that feel only the larger producer has knowledge enough about the commercial industry to dare air views about it.
Rather than take shots at each other we should recognize that there are many people who do not own a farm and never did, living on country residential developments everywhere that have the ear of government, and many of them are making noises about their tax dollars going to prop up the agriculture industry.

My MLA has told me many times that there are about 8 MLA's in Alberta that really understand the issues the industry is facing, and whenever any assistance to agriculture is discussed in caucus it takes a lot of arm twisting by those few MLA's to get the support of the others who represent mainly urban or urbanized folks. Mind you, next time I meet my MLA, which is next week, I am going to ask him if he thinks I should cease and desist any lobbying for the ag industry....because what in hell would I know !!!!
I do agree blackjack, anyone sitting around waiting for assistance from the government will get old and grey before it happens.