New farm aid program

[coppertop]

I have never indicated that I had a problem with the $50,000 threshold. My point in all this diatribe has been to point out that people involved in smaller operations are just as concerned about the viablity of industry as the larger operations, even if some of their income is derived from other sources.

At any rate, we all can agree to disagree, there are far more important issues facing the industry, particularily in parts of our province where a horrible hail storm went through this afternoon causing vast amounts of damage. Had that happen here two years ago, and I sympathize with anyone who had damage to crops and property .

[blackjack]

...well personally i'm on kpb side on this issue...i am only going to add one point if a producer is sitting around hoping government is going to solve their problems they will be severly disappointed... i imagine everyone would agree whats best for one operation may not be the answer for the either...in other words i don't see much happening other than a few more bureaucrats being paid to figure out that they don't have a clue how to solve the problem in the first place... gotta go ... had 6 inches of hail last night so had better go see how restless the grassers are...

[coppertop]

blackjack, its extremely unfortunate that there are SIDES to this issue. For the life of me I don't know why there is, but this isn't the only issue where folks on this site are divided.

We have had comments from folks in Sask. wanting Albertans to stay on this side of the border and not buy land in Sask.
We have folks in Montana that don't want our cows or hay down there.
And now we have folks in the same industry in the same province that feel only the larger producer has knowledge enough about the commercial industry to dare air views about it.
Rather than take shots at each other we should recognize that there are many people who do not own a farm and never did, living on country residential developments everywhere that have the ear of government, and many of them are making noises about their tax dollars going to prop up the agriculture industry.

My MLA has told me many times that there are about 8 MLA's in Alberta that really understand the issues the industry is facing, and whenever any assistance to agriculture is discussed in caucus it takes a lot of arm twisting by those few MLA's to get the support of the others who represent mainly urban or urbanized folks. Mind you, next time I meet my MLA, which is next week, I am going to ask him if he thinks I should cease and desist any lobbying for the ag industry....because what in hell would I know !!!!
I do agree blackjack, anyone sitting around waiting for assistance from the government will get old and grey before it happens.

[blackjack]

...overall on most things i agree with you coppertop ...but from reading your posts would it not be fair to say your area is still predominately agricultured based...while here in central alberta we are getting inudated with people moving into the countryside that don't have a clue about agriculture...and then they start to whine about us bigger producers and our operations...this is where i personally get upset coppertop when our fellow producers also like to start to point fingers...whether we like it or not govt policy has made us full time farmers increase in size to keep up to the ever shrinking margins... as you know coppertop the agriculture landscape is quickly changing and we all will need to adjust to it...in saying that i do thankyou for your time you put into promoting agriculture and that you also want agriculture to be a sustainable industry...

[coppertop]

blackjack, in this area you are correct in assuming that agriculture is not the industry that drives the economy, however, due to the rain fall and grass/forage growing potential there are numerous large cattle operations that are full time farms.
There is opposition to large operations because people who reside in country residential/hamlet, and yes, even some members of the agricultural community not wanting to ENDURE the sounds and smells of the livestock industry.
When I was on our local county council I found that whenever one farmer objected to something another was doing, there was usually a long HISTORY between the two that had nothing to do with hauling and spreading manure !!!
Larger livestock operations meet resistance in many locales, not just in central AB. The Peace Region has several large groups who vehemently oppose any proposed large livestock operation, hogs or cattle. The reason being for the most part that there have been a few operators that haven't really made an attempt to put their best foot forward in that region so every potential operator is tarred with the same brush.

WIth the growth our province is experiencing, and the huge influx of people to rural areas, I fear that the agricultural industry is going to see inceased complaints, and objections to generally accepted farming practices such as chemical spraying, manure spreading etc., as rural Alberta is populated with more and more people who have no understanding of our industry.

[ruggb]

Coppertop
I didn't see the posts on Sask people not wanting Alberta buyers of Sask farmland.
I just can't let that one go by without comment.
ALL BUYERS OF SASK FARMLAND ARE WELCOME
All Albertans will be welcomed with open arms in this area. Actually there are a few coming in now

[coppertop]

ruggb, there were commments to that effect by a producer in Sask. I know full well that one individual does not speak for the entire province, and I know several people from this area that have purchased land in Sask., and been made to feel very welcome in the community.

This is no different than one individual thinking they speak for all large livestock operateration, when in fact, they are likely in the minority with their comments about smaller producers.

I enjoy reading all posts on this site, but do feel that there are a very few that like to treat others ideas with scorn and belittle the efforts of those that aren't large full time operations. As I have said before we are all in this industry and there is strength in numbers when it comes to dealing with government and those that don't understand the importance of the agriculture industry.

[cowman]

Of course $50K gross on any farm is not going to get the bills paid, as a stand alone farm. But for a young fellow starting out, trying to get his foot in the door it might be a helpful program? Of course seeing how he is probably working, he wouldn't qualify anyway?
In fact I wonder who would qualify?
But take a look around you at your neighbors? How many of them are under 50? The fact is we have pretty well become an industry of old people and I really can't see that getting any better?
I don't have the answers but somehow the government needs a plan to get some new blood into this industry!
Personally I don't see throwing taxpayer dollars at the problem as a solution? Maybe throwing up some trade barriers might work...or maybe not? It doesn't seem fair that Canadian businesses are hampered by all the socialist red tape and high taxes, when some offshore competition has no similar costs? How fair is that?

[cowman]

One other thing: Some of you have been in this cow business long enough to remember this?
I think it was in the late seventies or early eighties. In Canada we were in the rebuilding phase of the cattle cycle and cull cow prices were rising dramatically...approaching the mid-50s! The delis and meat shops down east started crying for cheap manufacturing beef...and in she came! The price here crashed and when the CCA started to complain, we were told we had to compete...and if we couldn't we should get out of the business!
Anyway the upshot of the whole thing was the beef coming in was Irish and it was subsidized close to 70 cents a pound! Then the federal government slapped on a tariff...but too late, the damage was done!
There is way to much of this sort of BS going on? It set back the Canadian cattle industry so a few fat cats in Toronto and Montreal could make a few extra cents on a sandwich! How fair was that?

[smcgrath76]

Interesting, especially as a young starting producer. I think that we could probably yank a lot of the gov't subsidies for the smaller operations, as many producers choose to subsidize their farm businesses with off farm income (rather than the gov't tit). Of course this creates an unfair advantage for those smaller producers trying to compete with larger subsidized operations.
I think the real challenge is not what size is a real farmer, or if a real farmer has to realize all of their income from the farm, the challenge is profitability. There are some businesses that are not structured to ever be profitable. I don't think we should subsidize these individual businesses (large or small) other than potentially some transition or exit funding.
I agree with kpb about competing with people that don't care if the make money or not, but I disagree with the size/fulltime farmer issue. There are a lot of very successful business people in other businesses who operate or work in more than one industry. Diversfying income sources is not a bad risk management strategy. You can slam me as a part-time farmer/rancher, but we are very concerned with our profitability, and I know from a strictly monetary sense what the difference in the value of my time is sitting on a tractor/chasing cows versus my other occupation.
To really be effectively using our high value time, we should probably be managing enough assets that we never sit on a tractor or chase cows. I think there are very few farms in Canada or North America that are that size.

[coppertop]

The fact is that if only the large full time farmers are the ones that will receive government assistance,and the smaller 'hobby farmers' are excluded, there are so many that fit into the 'hobby farm' category that collectively they can out vote, out lobby etc. the larger operations and have far more influence on government. I do not agree for one minute with the 'hobby farmer' category, as I have said many times on this site, we are all involved in the business of producing food. Whether it's with 50 cows or 5000.

The $50,000 figure will certainly weed out smaller operators and that may be the fairest way to deliver any program.

It is interesting that in our community where the resource industry is by far the main contributor to the local economy, there are two large farm feed stores, plus a new UFA farm centre, six veterinarians, plus a busy auction market, so dollars made in the agricultural industry are certainly significant even though many of those operations have some off farm income.

[carebear300]

Well for what is worth I might as well add my ten cents worth. I think the program is just another example of governments paying lip service to the problem. The only ones that will gain any amount of money are the consultants that will be hired to do these evaluations or studies or whatever they are called. Smells an awful lot like the conservatives have some unpaid back debts that have to be paid off to these clowns. Sorry likely didn't add anything constructive have had a bad day combining weedy peas.

[Ron]

Sorry Carebear, the consultants were already designated by the liberals, the only new componenet of this program is the (options program) money for deadbeat farmers (I say this with humour)

[carebear300]

HeHe nobody seems to talk about those dead beat politicians, that as smart as they claim to be can't ever seem to understand the problems in agriculture. Someday when the production of food is solely in the hands of the large multinationals we will see how everybody pays!!!!!!

[coppertop]

The Alberta Government announced yesterday that there will be a payout to farmers who are enrolled in the CAIS program to help offset the rising input costs of fuel etc.

This is another ad hoc program, and my view is that there needs to be policies in place both provincially and federally that automatically kick in when fuel, power etc. costs reach a certain point. Similar to the natural gas rebate program in Alberta.

I would appreciate hearing the views of others on this site regarding the above. Having governments occasionally throwing money at agriculture in a inconsistent way does little to help those in the industry budget for rising costs of production.