Slowing the Economy?

[cropduster]

Your key words here, Coppertop,I believe are `elected representatives`.If they only wish to represent then we will have no movement.If tho` they should happen to be `visionary` representatives then I believe they will strive for positive movement.Bureaucrats on the other hand have NO incentive whatsoever to make change...they have chosen to get paid the same every two weeks....sure there are raises along the way....but do they have TRUE reason for motivation??I think not.It`s the working Albertan`s out there that can and will be the ones to MAKE this province.We need a true `visionary` type leader not a `slickster` but someone who will `clear the path`(if you will) for Albertans to build this province even more!!

[cowman]

What should the role of government be? What do we need them to do for us?
Do we need to be fed daily by the government? Do we need them to find us a home and tuck us in at night? Sort of like the old Soviet Union?
An amazing thing happens when the government gets out of treating us like a bunch of babies...people get out and hustle and take care of themselves! I would suggest living in a tent at forty below might just be a good incentive to work hard and get ahead?
My own opinion is the government should do three things: law and enforcement, the public infrastructure, the military. Now maybe even some of these could be privatized, not sure but maybe?
Coppertop: I've not been in the "loop" lately and don't know all the details of this provincial land use policy? I wonder if it will be like the "Red Deer County" land use policy, where they spent huge amounts of money coming up with a policy only to violate it themselves? And thereby open the door to what has become NO policy? All those studies, public meetings, paper shuffling, etc. for nothing?
I wonder how many of you "Sustained slowed down growth" advocates have talked to some of these young guys working in the oil patch? They come from some God forsaken hole in Newfoundland(or wherever) with no hope and they come here where anything is possible! Suddenly they see a future for themselves and their families!
All this "slow the economy" is, is this: I've got a sweet life here and I don't want to share it! Everybody deserves a chance in this world...not a guarantee of success but a chance! You want to take away that "chance" from a lot of young people? How fair is that?
God gave us a brain and two hands. How well we use them will determine how well we do. But everyone needs a chance to use both! Just my opinion.

[coppertop]

The economy will slow itself down if oil prices continue on the downslide. No incentive for companies to work over old wells to get them into production for one thing. Cowman, the youngsters from the Maritimes may be making big money but if they have no trade to fall back on what will happen to them when things do slow down.
The Land Use Policy Framework is looking at all land uses, and perhaps there will be changes in which jurisdiction is responsible for some of the zoning etc. At this point,every village, town, city and rural jurisdiction has their own land use by-law, and if they are of a certain popultation they are also required to have a municipal development plan, which means, that there are well over 1000 different land use by-laws,etc. in the province.
Each area treats land zoning in a different manner. If you drive around the province and see some of the haphazard planning in some communities you will know what I mean.
Industry and residential developers need some commonality across the province, and people who are land users need some security as far as future planning in their area goes.
For instance, if you buy into a nice retirement condo in the urban fringe of a town or village, it would be nice to be assured that you weren't going to have a large industrial facility blocking your view . At this time, municipalities can change zoning with a show of hands. In this community there is a new development on the edge of town and someone is building an apartment RIGHT behind the vet clinic, talk about conflicting zoning !
Our county has approved five small parcels adjacent to two feedlots, and people currently either building houses or moving mobile homes onto these properties. The two feedlots operators can count on at more complaints when they spread manure, haul cattle, process newly weaned calves etc., plus the newly amended AOPA legislation provides a clause allowing an existing livestock operation a .77 percent expansion if they cannot meet their Minimum Distance Separation, so each of these operations could expand an additional 75% and the people who have spent money developing their NEW ACREAGES cannot do a thing about it, but the potential is there for continuing conflicts that could have been avoided had the county used their noggins !
I am hoping that the new Land Use Policy Framework has teeth and ensures that there is land set aside for FOOD PRODUCTION.
In your area cowman, some of the best land in the province is rapidly disappearing under concrete but there are many areas that do not have the same pressure to develop, and those areas need to be zoned properly not by pressure at the local level.

[cowman]

Coppertop: Who decides what land should be set aside for "food production"? Some clown in government...or the poor bugger going broke trying to produce the food?
Sounds like the BC gong show where the orchards were going broke because prices were so poor...but the dumb farmer was expected to "feed the world" instead of getting a fair price for his land!... the land bank?
How fair is this? Lets see: The public won't pay enough to keep the farmer viable...but they expect him to carry on anyway! This is totally unacceptable to any sane person? Maybe you should consider taking out a membership in the NDP party?

[cakadu]

Cowman, sometimes I really find it hard to see where your logic comes from.

The kinds of things being referred to in this posting are more fundamental than just getting out there and making a buck. Take the couple (or even individuals) who have paid a down payment to get a house built and then get told that they are getting their deposits back unless they are willing to pay an additional $30,000. There are items in building contracts now, known as "escalation clauses", which means if the costs go up, then you pay more or you don't get your house built. I know of a young lass who had bought (or so she thought) a condo, only to have it slip out of her fingers this week because the sub-contractors told the contractor that they were not going to honour their commitments. The contractor then turned around and told her that if she wanted her condo built, she (and the others who were waiting for them to be built) had to pony up another $30,000 or they would get their deposit back. Needless to say, she has her deposit back and is out a house.

As far as having no education and/or employable skills to fall back on - that will become a huge issue in the years to come. Right now there is a huge push to build all these technologically advanced manufacturing facilites etc., that employ lean manufacturing and the like. Finding the labour to build them is one thing, but an even greater issue is going to be finding people to run the equipment. They are going to have to have technical and business skills to be able to do the job. More than a high school education is going to be required. There will be another labour crunch, perhaps of even greater severity, in another 5 to 7 years.

We can choose to ignore the warning signs for all of this hyper-development and growth or we can try to take steps to mitigate the risks and the consequences now.

Personally, I would much rather see the deer and the moose out grazing in the fields than look at a compressor or a drilling derrick anyday.

To me, we need to put ourselves in someone else's shoes every once in a while because things are never, ever as simple as they seem.

[blackjack]

...you just answered another question coppertop...when the oil prices go down the economy will slow...so why would you want it to slow so everyone can cry about how it was in the good old days out in alberta...kinda reminds me of the good old days in 2000 and 01 when i sold grass yearlings for over 1200 dollars a head and at a lot less cost than today...i keep on dreamin about when that day might come again...lol...

[coppertop]

The buzz word from three leadership candidates is to ensure we are not shippping raw product from the oilsands, so that would mean that things would slow down while facilities are built to refine bitumin. That should not be doom and gloom, just the opportunity for a few more Albertans and others to earn a good living in this province.

[cowman]

I think it should be a concern when politicians start talking about "value adding"? Just what does that mean?
Does it mean the Alberta citizen is going to be on the hook for the cost?
If the Encanas of the world are selling raw product to the USA because they can get more money for it than refining it here...that usually means economic sense says it should be processed there?
Its no different when we got in this big flap over building packing plants? The fact was a Canadian packing plant just couldn't compete with US packers! So after all the running around wringing our hands,what happened...the cattle went south!
If big oil can make more money shipping tarsands south why would they even consider building refineries here? To lose money?...I don't think so?
Now mind you if they can get some dumb politician to put up billions of taxpayer money...they just might reconsider?

[cowman]

Linda: In a market economy thats just how it is. Some win and some lose.
You quote the girl who lost her condo because she wouldn't pay the extra money...obviously someone else would? All the other condo owners just saw their value go up another $30K!
Thats the situation today. What is the alternative? Should we have a regulated housing market? Maybe like the good old Soviet Union?
As far as a labor crunch...well if the money is there the workers will come...if not the plant will sit idle! A lot of restaurants/fast food joints are experiencing this right now...especially the cheap skate ones who want to pay peon wages while they rake in a fortune! And then cry about no labor available! You pay enough and they will be knocking down the door!

[coppertop]

cowman, the booming economy is bringing out the greed in a lot of businesses. Used to be when you signed on the dotted line to have a house built you got it for the price quoted in the agreement, if there was an increase in cost the builder ate it. Now, there is a clause that indicates the buyer is responsible for all increases in building costs, so home buyers, particularly first time homeowners without a lot of collateral in an existing home, are being gouged to death. You wouldn't suppose that there was some sort of backroom deal cooked up between the material supplier and the contractor would you ?

The reality is that any existing home, even what most of us would consider a shack, is selling for an astronimcal price in the areas of the province where there is the most demand for
housing.

[wilagro]

Cowman likes the dog-eat-dog economy. It brings out the BEST in people.

Winning is all that matters...tough luck for the losers.

[cakadu]

Good grief cowman. What if it took everything she had just to get into it in the first place? The $30K might just as well have been $3 million. A contract is a contract, plain and simple. The cost of something doesn't necessariy translate into value.

There is absolutely no way that any service industry can compete with the wages being paid in the oil patch. I agree that some places have to bring their wages up to a more reasonable rate. You have to be sure to compare apples with apples though. Even the Tim Horton's of the world are paying upwards of $10 now with all kinds of incentives and benefits. You still won't ever make $30 an hour at Timmy's no matter what the economy escalates to.

Why on earth do we want to send commodities out of the country only to buy back the value added goods at inflated prices. It would be one thing if we got decent prices for the commodities we ship out of here, but in large part we don't. We ship all kinds of trees out of here, and buy back very expensive lumber that isn't of the highest quality. We ship all of our high quality out of here and buy back the more expensive, lesser quality products. Does that make sense?

Depending on what forecasts you believe, and coppertop has also stated it, the oil isn't going anywhere fast, so will it hurt to take it out in a more sustainable fashion? Or do we have to treat it like the golden goose.

It has occured to me that there is a bumper sticker that you often see on cars - I'm spending my kids inheritance.

Given what is happening out there, that is taking on a whole new meaning. We are treating all of this as though it is ours to do with as we wish. We are merely borrowing what is here. Shouldn't we be better custodians of it than what we are?

[cowman]

Linda: A contract is a contract...and she signed it and obviously was aware of that clause? So what is the problem...no one did anything illegal here? Should the contractor lose money so she can have a house...well how long would he be in business?
If value adding in this country adds to the price then do we really gain anything? Instead of buying your computer or television from Asia for a low price, would it be better to pay 4 times as much if it was built here?
The "market" says manufacturing should be done in Asia...not here? If the market says the USA can refine oil cheaper than here, then that is where it should go?
The Oil companies are in business for their shareholders? They want to produce as much product as cheaply as possible...just good business? The government encourages this and has for a long time? You ask what is the hurry to get the oil out of the ground? Well I would suggest it is the need for money from the government to fund every goofy socialist idea anyone could come up with? The oil companies don't decide these things...government does!
The people of Alberta consistently vote in a very "pro-business" government, so I would assume the majority approve? And because we live in a democracy I guess we have to go with the flow?
Ask the people of Alberta if they want to see the economy slow down? Elect the NDP or Liberals and watch it come to a grinding halt! Then we could all go back to living like dogs and relying on the government to feed us!
Sure there are problems with a booming economy...but much better than one that is bust!

[coppertop]

Linda, there are places in Alberta, particularly in the Peace Region and Fort Mac that Tim Hortons is paying almost $20.00 an hour for staff. In many places the fast food outlets are closing at 7:00 in the evening because of lack of staff, our local IGA store has posted a sign saying they can no longger provide carry out service due to lack of staff. Now that doesn't inconvenience many people with the exception of elderly, young moms with little ones etc., but people are managing.The staff making almost $20.00 an hour at Tim's still cannot make ends meet with that salary if they are the sole wage earner with the cost of everything soaring.
The promises of leadership candidates are getting more ridiculous as the days go by. Norris has indicated that he will review the stumpage rates, which no doubt means lowering them, and that is damn well wrong. Municipalties in the resource area, eg: Clearwater, Yellowhead, Woodlands, Brazeau, Grande Prairie etc. paid vast sums of their own tax payers dollars to maintain and repair secondary highways that were pounded out by the logging industry for years, until the province finally took back the responsibility for them. Just one of numerous provincial responsibilities that had been downloaded to municipalities, thanks to Dinning and his sharp pencil when he was treasurer.
cowman, there are many Albertans that feel we need to revisit the royalty fee issue, need to have more industry funding of services in communities, need to address the environmental debt that is being incurred on a daily basis etc. The people that I talk to that are ranting about keeping the boom going are those who own oil service related companies such as tank truck companies, service rig companies etc.
I am putting some new windows in my home, and will be waiting six to ten months for them due to the demand, and the cost is 40% more for the same size windows that I had installed last year, but my income certainly has not gone up 40%.

[cowman]

No two ways about it coppertop, us service companies are all for more oil and gas activity!
Yep it costs more and it causes some problems...but like I said before... sure is better than the alternative!
Pony up and share the wealth a bit...and all your probems are solved!
These cheap skates who are raking in big bucks but want to keep paying peon wages are nothing short of a disgrace!
It really is a no-brainer...in my opinion!
My good guy was getting $25/hr. plus housing. He thought he could do better so I told him I'll give him a job for the winter(at a reduced rate)and $33.33 during the summer! He's happy, I'm happy...what could be better?