Bitumen and Ed?

[cowman]

Ed Stelmach states on his official website that all bitumen should be processed in Alberta...and damned the cost!
Now that is fine and dandy but how does he propose this should happen?
Should the likes of Ecana take less than the world market for their heavy crude so Ed can have some jobs in his riding...or should the government subsidize Ecana so Ed can have some more jobs in his riding?
Does it make sense, from a business sense, that the heavy crude should be processed in the place that makes the most money for all concerned(including the Alberta taxpayer) or is it more important to keep Eds' constituents on the payroll! POLITICS!!!
Sorry...business just doesn't work that way! These darned companies have this nasty habit of wanting to make money...not supply some politician with a job!

[coppertop]

The cost to Albertans now is billions in lost revenue per year, by shipping raw product out of the province. Of course it might mean less money for the multinationals who are reaping the profits now.

My vote is to put Alberta first !!

[Horse]

I have to agree with you coppertop on this one 10 chances to 1 if they can refine it cheaper elsewheres it is because they are subsidized in the refinery location or they are getting it to dam cheap in the first place.
Damm I wish we would stand up for ourselves instead of giving everything away to make someone like us.

[cowman]

The problem is this: The people of Alberta get a royalty on barrels of crude. If you force the Ecanas of the world to take less than world price they obviously can't pay as much? Royalties in Alberta are a very flexible thing...whether we like it or not!
Now without a doubt forcing them to refine it here would involve billions of dollars in investment and also thousands of jobs! hmmm...I thought you were all against anymore developement? Too much pollution...too much good farmland out of production...too much water being taken out of the system?
I think we can agree that once Encana pays the royalty the oil is theirs...to do what they wish with it? Or do we not respect property rights anymore? Is that fair? How is that any different than the old Communist regimes? State planning.
If it costs Encana extra money to refine it here, do you think it would be reasonable for them to ask to be reimbursed? From the Alberta taxpayer?
The oil company has a DUTY to do the best for their shareholders...not be a charity for Alberta! Can you understand that?

[coppertop]

Given the fact that large multinationals can afford million dollar per year CEO's I highly doubt that paying more to produce the product will put them on skid row.

[ivbinconned]

No they can't Cowman. Yours and my detractors would love to turn Alberta into a Saskatchewan. EXCEPT of course if and where it might inflict on their own lives.

They still would want all the personal benifits like increasing property values, lower...much lower taxe rates.

I have asked copper, but she wouldn't answer, if she has read the "firewall" letter that was written SIX individuals. That and the fact that Morton was born in the U.S. is a couple of talking points she likes to throw out there as if it is evidence of some nazi type horrific proof of what ever her imagination conjurs up.

When liberals resort to this type of inuendo then it IS proof that their arguments are weak and there so called virtue of intolarance does not exsist.

Mark Twain said this of people like copper and horse and wilagrow etc who are scared of the significant change that Morton represents...

..."In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man, and brave and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."

All the development they want that would produce jobs is more likly to happen if Morton wins and is able to stop the bleeding of money's out of Alberta to subsidize the rest of the country. But like I said...they are blind to the truth.

[cakadu]

We do tend to send all of our raw products out of the province/country and loose any of the value. The big companies quietly negotiate these things and it takes money from our coffers, jobs away etc. We don't have the manpower for the jobs, but we do have slow times (we don't always go at breakneck speed) and it would be great if we could diversify what we do.

Wouldn't it make sense to site refineries close to the source of the materials, or would it be better if we spend big money trucking/piping it somewhere?



It disappoints me that there are character judgments and finger pointing. Debating is one thing, making judgments about people you only "know" through the various comments they make in these meeting rooms is entirely another. Anyone who takes the time to post on this site should be able to do so without fear of getting bashed for their opinions. Understanding goes a lot further than finger pointing. Remember for every finger you point, there are three pointing back at you.

[blackjack]

...you are so right ivbcon...why did our lougheeds or gettys or kleins never think of this...if there is ever going to be a change...you can't keep on voting in the same people from the old club...

[Ron]

I think I heard Peter Lougheed on 630 CHED a couple months ago saying we should stop exporting raw product and refine it here. He said it is the provincial governments power to issue some form of export permit for the oil (not sure of the exact name but he definately stated he was in favour of refining here and he thought it was possible).

[coppertop]

interesting ivebin, if you look back over your posts you called me a bigot at one point. Where I come from in Alberta, that would be considered slander, I have my opinions, you have yours. Regardless of who wins tomorrow, I will still support honest, open government that understands issues and shows leadership by their actions, I will never support government that leans on Ottawa to win and bashes them like the bogeyman to get votes !!! If you heard the leadership debate two candidates discussed their background, where their family was from in Ed's case, but Morton only commented that he had emigrated to Alberta 25 years ago. He DID NOT mention where he was from, wonder why ?????

[ivbinconned]

..."wonder why????

oooooh must be something sinister here!!

I suppose if he had been born in Bagdad and his father had served under Sadam THAT would be ok?? Or had been born in China and his dad had been a communist...that would be ok too?

Give me a break!

Copper what I wrote was that you made a bigoted statement...and now you have done it again! THIS is an act of desperation. Pure discrimination based on Morton’s place of birth…shameful.

I had suggested that most everyone in Alberta is just one generation away from having been born somewhere else...maybe even you and yours! Care to comment this time...you did not last time??

I have followed the debate and it seems to me that Ed's way of governing would be to keep his finger moist and up in the wind so he would know which way to run... in order to stay in front.

He may be a good man but he strikes me as the kind of man that seems to subscribe to the popular secular notion that, "the truth lies somewhere in the middle"!! “I will listen to all sides.”

Let me show you how that kind of thinking is flawed and has gotten this world into a heap of trouble. Jim Dinning argues that 4 plus 4 equals 10 and Ted Morton agues that 4 plus 4 equals 8…
but then along comes Ed, and many in the media and those who we call middle of the road, those who like to consult and are too timid to take a stand or have strong views…thinking they are being “conciliatory” or “moderate” in their position … they give long winded arguments proclaiming that the “truth”… must be in the middle they declare… the answer must be 9.

Hey the mainstream does it all the time...deny reality!

Sadly a lot of lemmings believe the truth lies somewhere in the middle, an easy place from which to lead…takes no vision.

Copper you have uttered negative comments about the participation by Morton (one of six) in the writing of the “firewall” letter. I asked you if you had read it…you did not respond??

However you and some in the media, “condemn these men because they were so few. When, I ask, were the good and the brave ever in a majority”?

[wilagro]

iwasconned wrote:"Mark Twain said this of people like copper and horse and wilagrow etc who are scared of the significant change that Morton represents... "

Not much apparently as my bit bucket went empty...well anyway, what the heck does Mark Twain know about me? He has been kaput for over 100 years.

I am not scared of change...I say change this government and give us some normal, honest government...kind of like the one that I grew up with before the PCs came to power. We didn't NEED gambling to provide income for government services, we didn't need booze flowing seven days a week and 24 hours a day. We didn't need corporated tax relief to the tune of billions of dollars every year for the past 35 years and the slack taken up by the lowly consumer. We didn't need big elaborate spectacles in Washington DC to advertise our province and to highlite the fact that we had oilsands to exploit for next to nothing in royalty payments.

Changes are a part of life. We DON'T have to make change just because a few crackpots want us to conform to their rightwing agenda.

Morton is a troublemaker, in my opinion...nothing more and nothing less. Support him at your own peril.

[coppertop]

my background ivebin,is that I was adopted by two wonderful people who were old enough to be my grandparents. I have met my birth mother, and the family of my birth father who is deceased. They are Irish and Scottish background, making me a fourth generation Albertan by birth and by adoption a fourth generation Canadian, as both my wonderful parents came from Nova Scotia, and I am damn proud of both sets of parents, their background and values.

[ivbinconned]

I am sure you are and I am very happy for you. Albertan's nor I would hold nothing against you or them, and you ALL should be able to run for public office without "place of birth" being held against them.

The "firewall" letter...I assume you have not read it. Just a conveniant talking point??

[nicolaas]

COwman-- "Sorry...business just doesn't work that way! These darned companies have this nasty habit of wanting to make money...not supply some politician with a job!"

I don't know about that cowman. seems that John Deere could not get into the european market with their tractors due to high tarriffs. THey got around that by building numerous plants to make their tractors and parts in europe. Ever notice that John deere and just about every other tractor/combine companies parts are metric? and built in europe and the states? WHat about the toyota / honda setting up plants in North america to get around tarriffs? I may be wrong, but it seems obvious to me that if someone (ie the States) wants our product, THose refineries will be built here pronto. It is insane to buy ENCANAS argument. All it would take is an export tax on all unrefined product, qne none or a small one on refined product to get those refineries built. Good for the economy, good tradesman and engineering, high tech jobs in the support side, istead of high school drop out rig worker, cat skinner, hewer of wood- uneducated type jobs (sorry, but i have worked the oil patch and I know) THese politicians make me sick, I do not believe any of them will stand up for common sense and go against the oilmen and their farcical doom and gloom senerios. If one of them could assure me that they would do the above, then they would have my vote.