municipal taxes?

[cowman]

Lately in the local papers I see all these different local municipalities projecting major tax increases?
Two examples: Mountain view County is talking about 9%...and reading between the lines, skidding a lot of money around...so it isn't larger!
The city of Red Deer is talking over 11%! Is this smart in an election year?
My own municipality hasn't said much yet, but the city of Red Deer has finally come out of the shadows and admitted all their "games" were a crock of BS and stated very clearly they want to annex gasoline alley!
The Reeve said on TV if that happens...the county residents can expect their tax bill to rise about 33%!!!
So the war heats up down here...!
Now my question is this: Will the money Stelmach promised help relieve these tax increases? Or will the municipalities mishandle the extra money? Continue to grow their little fiefdoms? Build more "castles in the air" like Red Deer County and Mountainview county did with their over priced offices?
By the way, the Red Deer County waste transfer site still isn't open...and from the looks of construction...won't be open for quite a while yet! And yet the cost increases continue...I think they are past the $6 million mark now...with no end in sight! How do you go from an estimated cost of $2 million to over $6 million? Well I guess that was about the same increase as the Taj Mahal(new office)!
The $11 million dollar pipeline project to gasoline alley/industrial parks is still in progress...but I don't know how that is costing out!
I would hope the people of Red Deer, the county, and Mountain View County would take a good look at the performance of their respective councils and hold them accountable next fall? I do doubt this will really happen as the old reliable 30% of eligible voters...will bother to vote! It drives me nuts that people are so apathetic that they won't stop these spendthrifts!
One interesting sidenote: The former RD County Reeve has indicated he will be running for the "mayors position"(no longer called Reeve)! Now love him or hate him...he stirred up the pot and got people interested? Mayor Greg Johnson...sounds like fun? I think he would stand up to the City of Red Deer and he sure would give the local reporters something to write about again!

[coppertop]

cowman, the money the Premier plans on doling out to municipalities will, I suspect, come with no strings attached. It will be an amount equal to the education portion of the property tax, and municipalities can choose to lower taxes or continue to provide enhanced services etc.
Cost overuns aren't unique to your area given the state of the economy. I had a meeting with an urban CEO and Mayor last week, and they indicated that they have so many overuns due to increased labor and materials costs that they are finding it extremely difficult to project the 2007 budget.

Red Deer City's wish to annext gasoline alley isn't a shock to me, however, I really don't care for urban tax grabs, specially when all the infrastructure costs have already been borne by the rural municipality.

There are approxmately 8 such rural/urban scraps going on in the province at this time, and I would suspect that the new Minister of Municipal Affairs will get tough on this. The cost of these rural/urban conflicts are always passed on to the taxpayer, and those costs mean either increased taxes or lower services.

One municipality that has excellent working relations with their urban counterpart is Clearwater County. Years ago, they decided what lands would be available to the town of Rocky Mountain House as they needed more land to grow, and whenever the town wishes to annex in that designated area its a done deal without conflict. It took good leadership on both sides to come up with that agreement, but it seems to work very well.

[cowman]

Red Deer County doesn't seem to have a lot of problems with most towns...just the city of Red Deer!
Maybe one of the bright spots of the Stelmach election, should be our MLA(cabinet minister) should have some pull...while the two Red Deer MLAs...didn't support Stelmach?
I'll tell you one thing though...this guy(Oulette) has got to start delivering! So far he hasn't done much for Red Deer County. No police academy, no expansion of the airport!
I sure hope Ed Stelmach doesn't let these damned scoundrels(City of Red Deer) grab gasoline alley? It is very apparent to anyone in the area that the city has got themselves in a bind through years of incompetence and their lying ways are becoming very apparent! A local reporter(Johnny Bakusky) wrote an article about three months ago where he said the city was lying and playing a game with the industrial land...when the real goal was to steal gasoline alley? Of course the mayor and councillors were all outraged that he would say such a thing! I guess the last few days have proven he was 100% right and the mayor and council of Red Deer are a pack of liars and crooks!

[coppertop]

cowman, no MLA could have single handedly delivered the police academy. Now, it was a priority for the previous Solicitor General, but who knows what the new one will do. There was no money in the budget for the academy, but perhaps it will be budgetted for this time around.

As far as the Premier having the final say on annexation by the city of Red Deer, that isn't how it goes. If an annexation is filed by any municipality the process that must be followed is clearly spelled out in the Municipal Government Act. If the two municipalities cannot come to an agreement the Municipal Government Board will be asked to hear the case and render a decision which in fact is nothing more than a recommendation to cabinet. Now should Red Deer decide to annex gasoline alley, it would have to go through the above process, and if the businesses, and Red Deer County lobbied cabinet successfully, the decision might not go in Red Deer city's favor. Annexation is a very costly process. Should two sides decide not to agree, the legal costs are scary, plus each side would have their annexation team which would include legal counsel(s), communications consultants, economists, land use experts, etc. The wrangling could last for years without the final step to the Municipal Government Board being taken. Municipal Affairs usually directs the parties to enter into mediation,which also can take years.

I would suspect that any move at this point to annex wouldn't be completed if it wasn't a friendly annexation, until after the municipal election in 2007.

[cakadu]

Cowman, there were several factors involved in choosing the police academy location, one of which was the ability to join with an existing college, having the land base, proximity to other services etc. It was laid out in the Intent and RFP process.

The other side of the urban/rural debate is that there are a number of people that go into the city every day and use the services and infrastructure there, yet they pay nothing for using them. One study the county did showed that people in the acreages adjacent to the city went into the city an average of 11 times a day.

This is an issue that isn't going to go away, especially with the unprecedented growth in the Central Alberta area.

You don't have to drive far away from the City of Red Deer into the County to see where many of the roads are in pretty poor shape and they are not getting much work done to them, despite the bonds being placed on the roads by the oil companies etc. Some of the roads are guaranteed to shake your teeth loose.

[coppertop]

Linda urban centres are always complaining about rural folks using their facilities. When rural residents travel into the urban centre to swim, play hockey, curl etc. they usually spend money at the urban businesses, buy the odd vehicle, building materials,etc. Urban folks never take into account the number of times they head out into the rural area to a park,rural country hall, golf course etc., and use roads maintained by the rural tax base. Rural dollars add a significant amount to urban coffers annually.

Most rural municipalities have a cost sharing agreement with their urban neighbour and pay a proportionate amount based on the rural use of facillities.For instance our county pays approximately half a million dollars annually toward the operating costs of the swimming pool and sports centre in the local town, plus gives operating funds toward the library and community hall, hockey rink etc. in the one village within our county.

I have been on the rural side in this continuing saga of who should pay more, and know that the study done by AAMD C several years ago clearly showed that many rural municipalities paid the urban neighbour a significant amount toward recreation facilities etc. Mandel in Edmonton has caused a major rift by making comments about the residents of neighbouring rural counties using facilities in Edmonton.

[cakadu]

I don't dispute that there is use of each others' infrastructure at all. I also believe that there are two sides to the story - each with a sound basis.

The Rocky area should be used as an example for others to follow. It seems to be working well.

The one thing that I don't like is when the Reeve and/or the Mayor use "scare" tactics in order to make their point. I don't think that any one thing will preclude the County from growing or existing, which is what the Reeve stated.

Bottom line is that unprecedented growth will keep this struggle going.

[cowman]

Red Deer County never denied the city land to grow. In fact they offered them over 32,000 acres!
Gasoline Alley was developed because a clique of Red Deer businessmen were limiting the competition? The only reason COSTCO and STAPLES moved to gasoline alley was they were being shut out of Red Deer? It may surprize you that this "old boys club" owns quite a bit of undeveloped land in gasoline alley, today!
Glen Simon who owns a popular restaurant in gasoline alley will tell you all about the city and how they treat businesses! The business owners in gasoline alley want nothing to do with the city of Red Deer! And why would they? So they can see a major hike in their taxes to help pay for the gong show in Red Deer?
This whole thing of annexation and growth was agreed on a long time ago in a joint municipal agreement? It is only since this last mayor and a few wingding councillors got in that there hasn't been harmony? But really what can you expect...the mayor was the curator of the museum and wouldn't understand business if it bit him in the butt! His first priority on becoming mayor: Build a $44 million museum...now mind you no one ever went to the one we had...so we'll build a bigger one so no one can go to that too!
The Reeve claims gasoline alley brings in $6-7 million in revenue? The county budget last year was $15.7 million. You do the math? Is that a scare tactic? Was he lying? Lets not forget one thing: All the residential taxes and all the farmland taxes...make up less than 30% of county revenue! We lose gasoline alley you can count on your roads getting a lot worse and your taxes going way up? No other solution period!

[cowman]

Oh, one other thing!
The Red Deer mayor did a super whine about how the county was allowing a 7 screen ciniplex to go in at gasoline alley? The fact is this same company tried several times to build in south Red Deer but the city refused to allow it! They felt it would take business away from the theaters down town! The old boys business clique at work again!
He also whined about two car dealerships moving out of town? Now I know the owner of one of those dealerships and he told me the north end of Red Deer was becoming so congested it was hurting their sales,the city refused to do anything about it...thus the move to gasoline alley! And without a doubt all the other car dealers will soon follow!
The city of Red Deer tried to dictate to Precision Drilling about where they could build their new yard and how big it would be? Their "order" was totally unacceptable for Precision and thay moved out into county land....on land the county had offered to the city of Red Deer...and were turned down!
The same type of gong show happened with Haliburton and they said to hell with this and moved to Blackfalls!
Red Deer is NOT a business friendly city and until the people of Red Deer realize old washed up liberal klutzes, who never met a payroll in their life, just don't cut it as councillors or mayors...they will continue to see tax increases, poor planning and services, and strife with all their neighbors!
And lets not forget the gong show with the new City of Red Deer public works yard? $105 million to build it on the flood plain at Three Mile Bend! Right down in the river valley?...the idiots!

[coppertop]

cowman, you have made some valid points. I am aware of much of what you have pointed out, and certainly this rural/urban issue isn't new as far as Red Deer goes. I remember when Tom McGee was the president of the AUMA, and he was a speaker at a law symposium hosted by a major law firm. He went on a rant about Costco being allowed to locate in Red Deer County. His comments weren't appreciated by numerous rural councillors who were in attendance at the function, but his comments were certainly the mindset of urban councils of that day, and likely still apply.

The most important issue for urban centres is to have a say in the growth that takes place on their boundaries, and that is understandable. Intermunicipal Development Plans are structured to allow both urban and rural centers to have input into the type of development that takes place.

The rural/urban conflict isn't healthy for the regions, it costs huge dollars and fuels discontent.

[cowman]

coppertop: It is especially annoying when you see how far some co-operation could go to growing the whole community instead of this continual bickering that costs everybody? It is really funny that these same old "business men families" are the same crooks...from 50 years ago! ...I guess the acorn doesn't fall too far from the oak?
For several years it looked like Gail Surkan(former mayor) was really making progress and working with the county, and then we get Flewelling....and what can you say? The guy is an idiot!

[wilagro]

cowman: I see that things haven't changed much since I left Red Deer twenty years ago. They had a bunch of old fogeys running things then as now I am afraid.

New businesses had to be "approved" by the status quo boys before they set foot in Red Deer.

Regarding the present mayor of Red Deer...he hasn't changed much in his attitude of self-righteousness.

[cakadu]

I will put the question out there then, should the county be putting all of it's eggs into one basket or looking for other ways to ensure that it can continue to grow and to prosper. It is also relying very heavily on the oil and gas revenue, which is something that the province as a whole is looking at.

The water for "Gasoline Alley" comes from Red Deer. What has the county done in terms of looking for other water sources, or is Red Deer just to continue to supply the water no matter what the growth is?

The problem with long term councillors is that these long-standing problems exacerbate and continue on over the years. I make absolutely no bones about the fact that some of the councillors need to go into retirement. After 20 years on the municipal scene it is essential that new blood comes on board.

I am not justifying the position of either side, but there are many, many issues that have to be looked at in tandem and not in isolation.

It would also seem to me to be naive to think that some of these same things do not go on within the county's borders as well. Look at the subdivision issue and/or the development permit issue. Some folks seem to get theirs quite easily while others couldn't do enough to get the permission they are seeking.

One other point I would like to make is that with all this oil and gas activity happening in the county, many are seeing any kind of development potential go out the proverbial window as pipelines, lease sites, compressor stations and more limit what can take place. But we can't stop progress, right?

[coppertop]

Linda, at the Land Use Policy Framework discussions last week there was pointed discussion on the way pipelines etc. sterilize development for some.

As far as water supplied to county residents and businesses from the city of Red Deer, they are making a good buck on the sale of water plus all costs to install water infrastructure are borne either by the developer or the county. Anytime the city feels that supplying water to another jurisdiction puts the supply to their own users in jeopardy they can refuse to do so.

[cowman]

Linda: This last summer the county started to run a pipeline into gasoline alley from the pumping station at Springbrook? The intention is by next year to disconnect from all city water. The intent is to eventually build a pipeline from the Athony Henday water treatment plant to provide water to all the business parks and subdivisions west of the city and in fact to Sylvan lake?
Also last summer the county drilled another well to supply the Clearview Industrial park...because the city was threatening to break the agreement to supply water? 100 gallons/a minute!
I wonder what opportunities you see that might replace the revenue from goasoline alley or the industrial parks? The tax revenue from the industrial parks/gasoline alley is providing about 65% of all county revenue!
Now I know he's not your favorite person...but Greg Johnson told me that if Red Deer county can grow how they planned it....there should be no need for residential or farmland taxes within ten years! Now I take that with a grain of salt, but consider what the costs and tax base would be if Red Deer annexs both gasoline alley/industrial parks....and make no doubt the industrial parks are on the hit list, Pimm, Wong, Dawson and Flewelling made that very clear in interviews in the Advocate yesterday?
Would you want your land taxes to triple to maintain the same level of servic? Or would you rather have the service deteriorate further?
Someone has to pay the bills, one way or the other?
If this annexation is allowed why would the county even try to develop anything? So the city could take that too?
Do you ever wonder why the county had no problem with letting Innisfail, Delburne, Sylvan Lake and even Bowden(after a wee spat about crossing the highway) but continually has problems with Red Deer? Why even bother having a intermunicipal developement plan...if one party who signed it reneges on the deal? And yes, both Dawson and Pimm signed that deal and now they don't want to honor it? How do you deal with liars like that? Would you consider these honorable men?