county taxes?

[coppertop]

farmers_son, I served as Reeve of our county during an annexation bid by the local town. Believe me, the lands that had acreages and people on them would have been the most appropriate for the county to allow annexed, but the people living on those properties did NOT want to end up in town. Those areas cost the county a small fortune to service, maintain roads, pave roads, police etc. Urban municipalities have a right to expand their boundaries, otherwise every single county in the province could stifle growth of towns and villages within their boundaries by virtue of allowing dense residential growth in the urban fringe area. This is happening in many areas, and unless there is a good Intermunicipal Development Plan in place the urban centre has no say on what is being allowed on their boundary. The provincial Cabinet appointments have nothing to do with rural/urban conflict. The Premier put the people he felt were the best suited for the positions, and ones he could trust to be loyal to him. Every single MLA made their choice on who to support in the leadership bid, and I for one, would hate to see a new Premier start his mandate with a group of cabinet ministers that hadn't supported him, it could be a recipe for disaster.

Urban/Rural conflict started when the province did away with the Municipal Assistance Grants, these grants were dollars that every municipality, both rural and urban could depend on every year for necessary expenditures that were over and above what the property tax dollars could meet. Thankfully the new Premier is re-instating a grant based on the school tax portion of assessment, and municipalities can do with it what they choose.

[cowman]

The problem with the Red Deer situation is there was a good intermunicipal plan...agreed on and signed by both parties? I believe the preamble was "The City of Red Deer and the county both recognize the right of both to exist and grow..."?
In comes a new mayor...and it all goes out the window! All the dogs who signed the agreement are now howling to annex the small portion of industrial land the county has! Complete liars and thieves!
The county had reserved one small area for its own developement, as agreed upon in the intermunicipal plan, and had given the city free rein to annex and develop anywhere else.
The city sees this as ,simply, a cash cow that will pull 35 years of inept government out of the fire!
Business continues to flee the city, as fast as possible...some to the county...some across the line into Lacombe county! No one wants to be in Red Deer where taxes and spending are completely out of control!
The city of Red Deer commissioned some phony study that they are holding up as some sort of justification but it just won't wash! The councillors and mayors have continually been caught lying and making false statements!
Mayor Flewellings latest drivel is the county residents don't "contribute" to the "recreation facilities" or the library while still taking full advantage of them? Hmmmm....the county paid $500,000 to the Collicut Center(recreation) with the understanding that county residents would have full acccess to it....well yes but you pay four times as much as city residents, which has resulted in almost no county residents going there! The same for the Red Deer library! A card is ten times the cost of a city resident...and the county contributes to the Parkland library system?
And how about the Westerner fair grounds? The county gave $1 million when it started and has made regular donations!
On a per capita basis the county contributes more than residents of the city of Red Deer!
The city of Red Deer is probably one of the worst run municipalities in the province! Their planning department is...well to put it mildly...a complete joke! As you will plainly see if you ever drive through Red Deer!
Their tax structure is very high and getting higher! Over an 11% increase this year!...And they wonder why business wants out!
And the higher taxes are for what? Well how about a $44 million dollar museum...to go along with the "Sports Hall of Fame"? Ever driven by there on highway II?...one car in the parking lot...on a good day! And how about a new $105 million new public Works yard down in the flood plain by Three Mile bend? Under about three feet of water last year!
I hope Ed Stelmach can use his experience as a rural reeve to stop this sort of abuse! I hope our rural MLA(cabinet minister) steps up to the plate and stops this drivel!

[blackjack]

...cowman...the county should put a user fee on the road south of the coal trail fire hall and mckenzie road...for every city resident that uses it pays 10 times more...lol...i agree with your assessment on red deer's planning not only from the ones you mentioned to the 67th goat trail to its downtown development ...

[coppertop]

In discussions with some of the players in the Red Deer City/County issue I understand that the county has agreed to allow the city to grow in one direction, but not to annex Gasoline Alley. This sounds fair to me, but then I am not affected by the decision. It would be impossible to tax any roadway, regardless of which jurisdiction it was in. For one thing, it would be extremely costly to monitor where vehicles were from, and for the other the Province puts funding into local infrastructure so the public would have to get free access.

Our municipality injects a million dollars a year into cost sharing services with the local town, recreation, library, etc. Plus our county pays a proportionate cost of the fire department as well. Several years ago a group DEMANDED that the county and town jointly fund an indoor soccer field, the county held a plebicite and over 70% of the residents voted NO to injecting capital dollars. A committee went running around fund raising, the town met with the county dozens of times asking them for funding, the county finally agreed to inject $750,000 even though the plebicite had directed them otherwise. Construction costs were never really known, and finally the Town cancelled the project last year after going to tender and finding out what the cost would be.

Many recreation facilities are built because residents demand them, and have no clue what the cost is. In fact, many residents feel that their tax dollars pay for all these things, when in fact, they barely pay for essential services much less recreation. Government grants, lottery funds etc. plus user fees pay for recreation facilities, and in many cases the operating costs have escalated so these facilities aren't kept in good repair due to the costs.

Our local rec centre had to be closed for several weeks due to black mould in the kitchen ! The county council asked for a line by line expenditure and income for the facility prior to forwarding their share of the operating costs last year, but the town's accounting system did not support such information so rather than having a battle over it the county forward the money anyway !!!

I always felt that our residents needed to be aware of the cost of all services, whether they were essential or recreational. I feel the same about health care, we used to receive a detailed synopsis of the costs paid by Health Care for doctors visits etc., and if that were to be in place today, perhaps people would realize what costs are incurred when they use the system.

[farmers_son]

Coppertop: I hope I did not give the impression I was critical of Stelmach's cabinet appointments. However I am hearing comments from the cities that the province is being run by the Beverly Hillbillies. There is a very real rural/urban mentality in this province and the bottom line is that the wealth belongs in the cities and the rural areas can do without.

Why should the cities grow at the expense of the rural municipalities? In our county we contribute all the time to the towns recreational facilities and in many other aspects as well. Not one time have I ever seen the town contribute one red cent to the county. Not one time have I ever seen a picture of the town Mayor and county Reeve at a sod turning ceremony in the county although this happens all the time in the town. It is one sided and it is one sided with the approval of the province.

[cakadu]

Cowman, I find your comments quite interesting some times and at other times confusing. In some posts you blast the county for bad spending decisions and in this thread you state that "To even think it would be business as usual shows a complete lack of understanding county finances! It is a good thing that the councillors we have in there at least understand that!" Which is it?

I don't know where you got your library card, but I went to the school out here and bought a library card for a buck and it gives me access to books anywhere in the province. Out here, we're not getting anywhere near the road maintenance that we should be and haven't been for a good number of years, despite the GIS system in place to monitor the graders etc. We have yet to see the spray trucks out this way, in spite of the fact that they are supposed to be getting out to an area at least once every 3 years.

If the county didn't have all this excess money, would they have been able to build the new county building - which many residents in the county feel was unnecessary and was way over budget.

The subdivision of farm land is still happening to a large extent and it is amazing how the rules get relaxed for some and not for others.

Farmers_son, if the Beverly Hillbillies are indeed running the show, could it be any worse than when the "Drysdales" were running it?

I still say that unless you are involved in all the discussions, see the paper work etc., you can't possibly know all the ins and outs of the discussions that are going on. Even the people that are sharing their thoughts with you are giving you their interpretation of events and quite likely from a biased viewpoint.

No matter what, it is time for some new thinking around the county table.

[lesm]

I was wondering what you were paying in land taxes for a good quarter of productive grain land? Here in north central Saskatchewan we pay about $1300 a year for our best land.

[coppertop]

farmers_son, there are 68 rural municipalities and several hundred towns and villages each with their own governance...not to mention the cities in the province. Rural Alberta has a voice, its called the Association of Municipal Districts and Counties. Now, when you look at the make up of many rural municipalities they have more urbanized residents than they to honest to goodness rural folks.
When the province consults with Albertans regarding amendments to the MGA, the urbans faithfully send in their responses citing growth constraints, supplying of recreational facilities for rural residents without any of the tax revenue etc. Rurals send their responses too, but of course they are outnumbered. I do think we have a Municipal Affairs Minister now, in Ray Danyluk that understands the rural issues,and he also understands urban issues, and will be very fair in dealing with both in any municipal disputes that end up in his office.
As far as annexing land goes, sometimes the urban centre makes all sorts of promises to land owners in fringe areas, getting them onside with an annexation, then they put the head on the rural municipality. OR, the urban municipality will refuse municipal services indicating they do not have capacity to add on more residential and commercial properties. Then, the rural municipality must do a study of the capacity of the urban facilities to prove them wrong. All this costs money.

[cowman]

Linda: I believe it is every ratepayers right to question how the county spends our money? Personally I think they are quite extravagant on several things? That does not in anyway mean that I don't think the councillors in place don't know where the dollars are going and completely understand the consequences of losing over one third of the tax base?
Your own councillor, Lougheed, is not some sort of halfwit who knows nothing? Politics is politics and they all have to play the game...if they want to stay in office?...Probably why he aced the last election?
Yep, you can get books at the local yokel library...you can not get books at the Red Deer library...when you present your "special card"? Try it?
You show an amazing lack of knowledge for someone who says they were on the ag service board? The county since 2003 has sprayed HALF the roads every year and in 2006 they spot sprayed ALL the roads! Despite an accident that took one truck out of commission! Phone your ag fieldman if you don't believe me!
I sometimes find it incredible that people who would aspire to public office have no clue how the system works!

[blackjack]

...coppertop...i was just kidding about the user fee... but i do hear residents of calgary whining they pay the tax and the commuters from the airdries and okotoks get what they call a free ride when using the cities transportation system everyday...good luck to this danyluk fellow...he's goin need it...

[coppertop]

cowman, council members either know where the tax dollars and grant dollars are going, or they must be asleep during the budget deliberations. Most municipalities have half a dozen budget meetings with senior administration prior to passing the interim budget. Then they will finalize the budget and pass the mill rate at that time.

We used to spend days going through the budget of each department line by line, and usually sent department heads back to look for more efficiencies. Any municipal administration hates budget time....usually councillors are doing battle over capital projects, and during an election year it is usually a blood bath. Each councillor wants to look good to his constituents, which means getting some fairly large projects in their division.

I think you are being a bit tough on Linda, unless she is on the ASB she wouldn't know what their spraying policy is unless it is provided in the form of newsletters etc.

This county bought two new spray trucks and are losing the battle with weeds, particularly thistle and tansy in the ditches. The weed inspector sent a note to the neighbours advising them to pull the tansy in their pasture, they were told that it would be dealt with as soon as someone from the county started pulling the stuff in the ditch !!

[cakadu]

Cowman, it has been a couple of years at least since I sat on the ASB and the trucks were just getting going then. If you read my post, I said I haven't seen them out this way and copper is right - they don't exactly advertise when and where they are going to be out spraying.

I may not be able to take my card into the Red Deer Library, but I can order the books through the library out here, which is pretty much the same wouldn't you say? I don't have to drive to Red Deer to get it, I go to the school.

As far as Mr. Lougheed goes, he got in more because the vote was split than for any other reason. Had it been a 2 person race, the outcome may have been very different as evidenced in past elections.

I do believe farmers_son and copper in particular, have mentioned many times that being in public office is a thankless job and that there are many reasons that good people do not stick their necks out.

I will also stand by the fact that I think that there comes a time when there is new blood needed in any organization, government or association. You cannot solve a problem with the mindset that created it (Albert Einstein.)

Thanks for the support copper. I do believe that I have found my niche in life and am enjoying my job immensely.

[coppertop]

Linda, that is the main thing !! I really enjoyed being a farmer rep on the ASB here, then I ran for council and enjoyed the first four years. After that we had a huge division on council over paving local roads, most particularly, paving local roads close to where one councillor owned property. He would encourge groups of people to bring in petitions demanding their road be paved, when it was turned down, there were letters to the local paper that would make your hair curl. Once I was no longer on council he was able to get support toraise councillors honoaria to double, use the municipal reserves and debenture pavement. He and another counicllor went on trips far and wide at the tax dollars expense, and for a year and a half they really lived the high life. His big mistake, and he had the help of two others on council, was to cancel a long standing project that had worked its way to the top of the list, and include two roads in the budget for paving, that were not on the list, had not be rebuilt and happened to be adjacent to land he owned and land another councillor owned.
The public petitioned the minister for a complete review of council and governance practices and the consultant who performed the review was very scathing in his opinion of the actions of two council members. The Minister ordered that the road projects be cancelled, and two of equal cost that had a higher priority be done with the funds budgetted. This left one road a muddy mess all year, and the residents who had voted for their councillor on the promise of pavement past their door, had MUD instead.The Minister also ordered that the county take court action against the two members of council for acting in pecuniary interest. As far as we know this is the first time a Minister has had to direct that action be taken.

I watched all this from a safe distance, and was heartbroken to see what was happening to this community. It was written about in various large newspapers, on the radio etc.

The election in 2004 cleaned house, and the new council had a mess to clean up, reserves depleted to the point where the county would need to borrow for operating costs etc. They have done an excellent job getting their fiscal house in order, but many of them won't be back next year so who knows what sort of group we will have.

The most important thing in life is to enjoy what a person is doing, whether its out feeding critters or sitting in the board room.

[cowman]

Well I don't think I ever said it was an easy job? And anyone who takes a crack at it should be commended.
I might not agree with some of the things they do but I don't question their committment!
Even our former reeve who was a very contoversial guy? He was giving up his time and without a doubt going through a lot of stress because he believed in what he was doing?
Incidently I saw him in Red Deer a few weeks back and he said he is thinking about taking a run at the elected reeves spot! He has been busy in Arizona working on some land developement.
Linda: I'm not completely sure how your division was split up in realignment? I think basically division 6 and 5 are combined...or a good portion of each? I would think this would put Bell and Lougheed running in the same division? How do you see that playing out? Bell is pretty strong in his area...and I think a pretty decent councillor? Lougheed has had a few mistakes...in my opinion! He opposed the elected reeve at large issue...even though the people voted for it? I don't think that was smart? He doesn't seem to listen to his constituents !
I think Lougheed is fairly tightfisted(a good thing), where Bell is more open when it comes to spending money.

[cakadu]

Cowman, my understanding is that his division is gone - absorbed into divisions 6 and 4. Based on that, I think you can see why he has so vehemently opposed the elected reeve issue.