Oilsands?

[cowman]

Did anyone catch the news last night about how the American and Canadian governments/industry intend to increase the tarsands production by 5 times current production? In a relatively short time?
How do you do that and still remain "green"?
It seems the whole world is caught up in this global warming thing and I wonder how you can increase production at the oilsands....which are the largest producer of green house gasses in Canada, without a strong backlash?
Where does the Natural gas come from to increase production? Right now the tarsands consume a huge amount of natural gas to extract the oil...where will more come from? Or will nuclear energy be a necessity?
There was a report a while back that pollution was drifting into Saskatchewan from Fort Mac and turning the soil/water acidic? What happens when 5 times as much drifts in? Will northern Saskatchewan become a waste land?
Stephen Harper said Canada is about to become a super oil power and I guess he is probably right? Is this a good thing?

[coppertop]

It appears that the US want's to ensure they have a continuing supply of oil and gas without relying on the Middle East countries. Any agreement that Bush and Harper have made could go out the window if Dion happens to win an election. Hopefully, Alberta is at the table, and ensures that our interests are served in all these grandious plans.

[cakadu]

About 15% of the US oil imports come from Venezula as well.

You've just looked at one factor cowman. What about the amount of water that will be consumed and lost to us? It takes approximately 4 to 5 barrels of water to get one barrel of crude out of the tarsands. Where is all the water going to come from? What about those tailing ponds? They are toxic sludge that cannot be used for anything - at least with current technology.

What about the land that will be taken out of circulation to accomodate the ponds? What about the watersheds in and around those areas?

We can become an oil superpower, but at what cost?

[wilagro]

cowman: Think back to when Alberta's Ralph Klein and his government tried to sell the Americans on our 'abundant' oil supplies and how we were their eternal friends for ever and ever, amen.

Remember when Chaney flew over the oilsands after Ralph's request to come and see our 'abundant' supply of oil.

Well those efforts have now resulted in the plans for the greatest EXPLOITATION of our resources EVER.

In the future our tourist brochures will announce...Come see the great Alberta wasteland and view the results of greed and mis-management.

Bloody fools...ALL.

[coppertop]

The land taken out of production in the Municipality of Wood Buffalo is certainly a better choice than ripping and tearing up the rest of the province. Just today we dealt with an issue locally where a party wished to subdivide their quarter of land, and it contained a couple of big borrough pits, which literally render the land useless. Unfortunately the oil sands is going to expand into the Peace region very soon and there is some excellent agriculture land in that area, which no doubt, will be lost forever.

The water issue is crucial, and our province needs to be vigilant on that matter, the money in the provincial coffers does no good to Albertans if the exploration comes at the expense of water quality and quantity.

[farmers_son]

Unfortunately Canada will never be an oil superpower. And if there were ever changes made so that Canada could be a oil superpower Albertans would be the first to object and object most strenuously.

I recall an article in Forbes Magazine to the effect that provincial ownership of oil and gas diminishes Canada’s ability to effectively capitalize on its energy bounty in the same way other countries do. In other words provincial ownership of energy prevents Canada from becoming an oil superpower. The most recent attempt at having a made in Canada energy policy was fought tooth and nail by Albertans, it was called the National Energy Plan or NEP.

In addition NAFTA effectively gives control of our energy resources to the United States. We like to think of the oil in the tarsands as “ours” but the fact is that those reserves are 100% or nearly so owned by American corporations. It has not been ours for fifty years. Yes, Alberta will collect its 1% royalty on tar sands oils but the rest of the profits go south of the border.

Once we gave up the right to turn off the tap the oil we gave up our power over our energy reserves. Sorry, no oil superpower status for us. I guess in return there was supposed to be free trade between our two countries. Unfortunately no one told the Americans that and any cow producer in this country knows exactly what free trade really means. The border works one way.

I doubt very much if our American masters will care too much if the water in Saskatchewan is acidic.

[Horse]

I feel a lot of the problems come from the govmt asking for advise from only those that are activly involved directely in the oil buiz and can you expect a farmer to be able to difine the problems or a teacher or nurse but do you think the people whose bottom line will be negativly affected to tell the truth ? I think that would be asking a lot but if these discusions were held publicly and with some athority we might be better off.
I know it is the senility thing setting inbut dare to dream.

[cowdog]

I find many of the aspects of the oilsands developemnt very disturbing for more than the enviromental issues. The gas used in the production of the oilsands is produced royalty free here in a province where we have some of the lowest royalty rates in the world. In addition to this the diesil used in the oilsands production is also heavily subsidized by being tax and royalty free; this may explanin why diesil is now more expensive than gasoline , inspite of the fact that heavy oil produces dispreprotionately larger quanities of diesil compared to gasoline.
Some of you may have heard of the proposed Dodds-Roundhill coal gasification project, 312 square kilometres of farmland to be stripmined, to produce hydrogen from the waters of the North Saskatchewan River. What is this hydrogen to be used for? The lightening of the heavy oil so it can be shipped out of this country to be refined, yep no value added here. This plant and mine are expected to use about 150 megawatts of electricity from external sources, diesil fuel and natural gas; undoubtedly also royalty free. This will not be the last plant biult for this purpose. Isn't it about time the energy industry started paying the real cost of its production and stopped living off the backs of Albertans. The other thing I find disturbing is that the profits follow the energy out of the country.

[cowman]

Linda: I will freely admit I don't know a great deal about the tarsands. And I have no idea where they get their water from? If production increases 5 times where will the water come from?
farmers son: To a certain extent I agree with you, with a few exceptions! The people of Alberta do own the tarsands? We have leased the resource to the US oil companies? Alberta does get to set the royalty rate and can change it...which is a lot more than the freeholder can do?
The 1% royalty rate was only an incentive that is not supposed to stay in place forever? Now I have no idea how much production is still tied to the 1% rate...I would assume not all of it? Syncrude is now producing synthetic oil at Fort Mac for a cost of $13.40 a barrel. I assume the royalty is included in that cost...but maybe not? I'll post the name of the site where they state that is what it costs them.
Mr. Stelmach is going to review the royalty structure in Alberta? I don't have a problem with giving a company a royalty break to build the plant...but it shouldn't go on for years and years! On most conventional wells the company gets a six month royalty holiday to help pay for the well?

[cowman]

One other thing I wanted to ask?
Mr. Stelmach was encouraging the companies to refine the heavy oil in Alberta? I think it is pretty apparent that was/is going to happen east of Edmonton? A lot of land has been bought up in that area?
I wonder how much water this refining process will require? Is there sufficient water in that area?

[cowman]

Sorry...I keep forgetting to put all the questions I have!
A huge portion of Albertas Natural gas goes to operate the tarsands? With a fivefold increase...where will the gas come from? Is there enough gas in Alberta to meet current domestic and export demands, plus fuel the expansion?
If tarsands production also moves into the Peace, a large portion of the high producing gas wells in BC will be needed?
Every so often we hear little stories about nuclear energy being used to extract the oil in the tarsands? In fact Ralph Klein mused about it last year?
Will that ever happen and if so when? Do the people of Alberta want a nuclear reactor? Would the people of Saskatchewan be leery or have a say...as they would probably be the ones most affected in case of a meltdown?
How much does a reactor cost and how long to build it?

[farmers_son]

Cowman: Re leasing the tarsands or for that matter any of the provinces energy reserves.

If they were truly leased there would be a lease period during which the lessee would make lease payments. At the end of the lease period the item would revert back to the lessor or if the lease was a capital lease the lessee would purchase the item at an agreed upon cash value.

The situation in Alberta with our energy reserves would be more akin to a sale with payments made over time tied to the depletion of the reserves.
In fact the province uses the word "land sales" to describe the allocation of its energy reserves to the various and most often U.S. controlled companies who then, for all intents and purposes, own the oil and gas under our feet. Bottom line, Alberta and Canada do not have signficant energy reserves any more as they have been effectively sold to U.S. interests. I believe that to be true.

[cowman]

farmers son: Not just sure how the Alberta government does it but on a freehold lease the lease is for a set number of years? There is an annual payment(although very small token payment) once the well starts to produce? You enter freely into these agreements? You are not required to enter into a mineral agreement...so in fact you do own the minerals under the land.
Once you sign that legal agreement the oil company does have the right to extract the minerals. You recieve an agreed upon royalty. I have a few issues about how this works and the law certainly favors the company over the freeholder! In Alberta(don't know about other places) the law favors big business! I think you know that.

[coppertop]

With the oilsands you can throw compensation to First Nations into the mix, because much of the land in question is either reserve or Crown land. First Nations are arguing that they have a right to compensation for any activity on crown land because of the treaties signed back in the days of Queen Victoria. These issues were discussed at the Land Use Policy Framework meetings last month. Oberg is the head of the review on the oilsands royalty issue, I haven't heard who else is involved but you can bet it will include environmental groups, First Nations etc., plus of course the industry affected by the outcome.

[cowman]

cowdog: Obviously you know a lot more about this stuff than I do!
I have to ask you about this "royalty free gas"? What is that all about? Personally I would be quite upset if Alberta is not collecting a royalty on the public property of Albertans!
Maybe we all need to be educated about this stuff?