pilot project for cbm?

[coppertop]

I haven't allowed seismic on my property for years either. In past years they were hitting flowing holes at 20' and one hole flowed for three years before I was able to get AB. Environment to force the company back to get the well cemented off. After that episode I just say no when approached by any seismic company. Thankfully my water well has never been affected by seismic activity, but I do know of neighbours that lost their well completely when seismic was going along the property line within the county right of way.
As far as seismic being the only oil and gas related activity a farmer can refuse on their land, that is accurate but I have been able to ENCOURAGE an oil company to re-route a pipeline that was scheduled to cross my land. I had numerous valid concerns about the location of the right of way, and they decided it was easier to cross vacant land across the fenceline than put up with all my demands, which was just fine with me !

[cowman]

Well greedy thing that I am, I guess I'll just take the money and run! If you don't want it, well that is your decision.
Because I own the mineral rights on some of this land I bend over backwards for these boys! So far its working for me!
I have no "illusions" about this land. It is not viable as farmland anymore. At over $3,000/acre its headed one way...the urban playground! Make hay while the sun shines!

[cakadu]

Once again cowman, you are talking far different things than many of us face. Your comment about owning the mineral rights on some of it is probably far removed from what the majority of us face. We have no mineral rights and in essence very few rights when it comes to our land and as farmers_son has pointed out, when it comes to the boards that are supposedly here to help us.

Your comments about not farming anymore are also from a different standpoint than what many full time farmers - who derive their incomes solely from the farm - are facing.

Everyone wants the economic activity to continue at this red hot pace and go on infinitely. Problem is, many of the natural resources and ecological goods and services are finite. We are so focused on short-term gain that we cannot see the proverbial forest for the trees.

For many, money is not the be all and end all, myself included. We have kept seismic off and intend to keep on doing it. With any luck we can keep the oil companies away too.

What guarantees have you got that your water will continue to be there, given the current level of activity that sounds like it is going on at your place? So often we refuse to look at the cumulative, long-term effects of our actions.

[cowman]

Linda: In my own mind I believe the age of oil is probably in its latter days? Eventually it will be replaced by better/cleaner energy? I figure about another thirty years? In thirty years I will be gone and I suspect my main farm will be developed. The government doesn't seem to care about the water, why should I?
Who are we so concerned about? The average farmers age in Canada is 58(I believe)? The fact is these old boys aren't going to be farming forever...and how many young farmers are coming up? Or do we sacrifice so a bunch of foreigners can come in and live their agricultural dream?
I will readily admit if I didn't own some mineral rights I wouldn't be so keen on oil field developement. My local landman tells me freeholders are always so eager compared to surface rights only owners!
The Alberta government collects a huge amount of money from royalties on Alberta land? I believe it is around $12 billion a year? My own personal view is that money should not be used to fund government programs! It should be paid out in a dividend to the owners...the people of Alberta! That way people would have an interest in the industry doing well instead of seeing money going into a black hole? $12 billion devided by 3 million is about $4000/year for every man, woman and child per year? So a family of four would recieve $16,000! That would be a real "Alberta Advantage"!

[coppertop]

And how many of those who receive the $16,000 would put it into programs that are currently provided by the government !!!!! The current mindset among many who are earning the big bucks is to spend like there is no tomorrow, and those are the ones who are going to be dependent on government programs in the years ahead. When things slow down in this province there will be a lot of cheap real estate for sale, and also a lot of collection agencies keeping very busy !!!

The way the feds are making noise about slowing down the oilsands, I would hate to be living the Alberta Dream on borrowed money !!!

[cakadu]

Cowman, I am sure that you have heard of Water for Life and the number of government departments that are involved in ensuring the sustainability of our water supply.

A number of people are involved in grassroots watershed stewardship groups in an attempt to restore watersheds.

Farming as we know it is changing and the average age of a farmer is increasing. Having said that though, there are a number of younger farmers coming in that are looking at farming differently than the generation before.

My concern with the rush to biofuels is there are concerns and things we need to look at in doing that. As a rule, farmers tend to "commoditize" everything. thereby driving prices down. Renewable sources of energy are going to be front and centre, biofuels among them.

If we're not careful, big corporations will own us in a different way, with very little more coming into our pockets.

The rush to plant as much crop for conversion into biofuels may harm ecosystems and have an impact on land management. Without moving towards no till practices, we will disturb soils potentially leading to more soil erosion. Increased crop production will lead to increased reliance on chemicals in order to continually monocrop and soils will just not be able to sustain that for very long.

Increased chemical use could and will lead to increased loads in water sources, which has a whole host of problems.

Land will be cleared to make room for more crops, which will have an impact on wetlands, trees etc.

Probably the biggest thing is that we tend to all move to something new and that will affect prices being paid to the producer. Crops will need to be grown for animal feed and other things as well.

I have no doubt that mineral rights owners are tripping over themselves to collect the bounty. Even if you're not here in 30 years cowman, the consequences of your actions likely will be. What would happen if we all took the attitude of "it's not my problem?"

[cowman]

Linda: we'd all be richer? LOL
Big business doesn't think long term? Why should we? Government(the peoples elect) doesn't think long term, why should we?
Why fix what isn't broke? When its broke then fix it...I know...pretty short term vision.
I have three more years...freedom 55? I dealt with the problems of my day to the best of my ability...the next generation can deal with theirs?
Coppertop: Careful...you are saying the government knows what is best for the peasants? Actually the peasants might do a lot better job of taking care of themselves? I believe any government should be able to take care of their programs...without stealing the peoples property? If not then...maybe we have too much government? Taxes should pay the bills...not confiscation of citizens property?

[grassfarmer]

I was thinking of you yesterday Cowman as I got cut up in traffic by a fool in a monster truck with the chrome testicles dangling from the back. Turned out he was in a rush to get to a Tim Hortons drive through.
I've read several times on this site the quote from Alberta's last oil boom that goes something like "If we have another oil boom I promise not to p@$%$ it away" It seems that this lesson was quickly forgotton and not only is the current boom seeing personal wealth p@#% away but also the resource generating the wealth. In addidition this time the concensus is it's OK also to p@#%# away our irreplaceable water supplies and pollute the environment at the same time. Real smart attitude, we are lucky there weren't so many fools in generations past or we wouldn't be here, any of us.

[cowman]

Actually grassfarmer, past generations never had the chance to piss it away? Or they probably would have...thus is the nature of man.
I truly believe that CBM(as we now know it) is not a big deal? It is the same sort of thing we have been doing for the last 60 years? Not even more shallow?
There are some things I think are ignorant...like water injection to bring up more gas? That is, in my opinion completely stupid and has nothing to do with resource recovery but more to do with cooking the books to make a company more attractive for a takeover bid? No one ever claimed these boys don't play down and dirty?
Sorry if my opinion says CBM is a safe way to extract the resource? And I will further admit I will benifit from it...and even further that I have recently signed a contract to supply a service to a CBM company!...I hope that didn't "disillusion" you? LOL!

[cakadu]

Cowman, that is a pretty simplistic and generalizing statement. Some may think short term but not all do and the same goes for people. Many of us don't think solely in the short term, although I have to somewhat agree with what grassfarmer is saying. It seems as though we didn't learn too many long-term lessons from the last time.

I'll quote my mother here and ask you, If everyone else jumped off the high level bridge, would you jump too? (A throwback of having been born in Edmonton I'm afraid.)

Who says it isn't broke? When you've got money pouring into your pockets, it's a little hard to look at something as being broke, but if you look beyond the money in the pockets and take a look at the social, environmental, health and infrastructure problems we are having, I would have to say that it is terribly broken.

I would also like to point out to you that there were a number of people concerned about the environment for many years - Aldo Leopold, Grant McEwan, even Teddy Rosevelt were ahead of their time in their thinking. There are also many unsung heroes out there working to preserve and restore the environment. I guess the dollars signs in the eyes make it hard to see anything else.

[cowman]

Well we can argue these things for decades but the fact is with this PC government nothing is going to change dramatically? No matter what...they want that well drilled!
Now it may not be right...but they are the government...elected by the majority?
So you don't need to convince the likes of me, I'm a lost cause, you need to convince the Alberta population? Convince them we need to curtail the oil boom! Maybe we could cut healthcare or something to make up the shortfall?
Join a political party, get out there and knock on doors...who knows we could be the next socialist utopia!

[grassfarmer]

Back to the old redneck default argument Cowman "if you don't agree with me you are a socialist/commie"
I don't accept for a minute that to have sucessfull resource extraction industry means you must have severe environmental destruction. The mess that is Ft McMurray tailing ponds is ridiculous and should never have been allowed.
When you imply that we must allow unrestrained development because the only alternative is a socialist type regime you are missing an important parallel. The environmental destruction that you support and apparently want to see here already exists in the world - notably in some of the collapsed communist regimes. Perhaps in your fight to remain "communist free" you will finish up with the same toxic environment they have in parts of the former USSR and eastern Europe.

[grassfarmer]

I have been following this site for sometime now and finally thought I should make some comments on behalf of the companies that sit on the other side.It was with much apprehenson that I wanted to be part of a agriculture discussion site but I must commend the landowners of the Aberdeen area for susccessfully bringing this pilot together.
The comments by Cowman certainly do prove that industry is not the evil part of the equation when it comes to resource development. If all landowners were of the same feeling it would make it alot easier on the O&G sector

[grassfarmer]

"....A lot easier on the O G sector" - in other words a lot easier to ride roughshod over land owners and citizens rights, pollute the environment and waste our finite fresh water supplies. Thankfully a good percentage of the population is more aware of your tricks than Cowman. I bet you wish there were more like him.

[cowman]

Actually grassfarmer there are a lot more like me, than not? Now maybe it is my area or something...but I've never heard of a company ever forcing a well on anyone around here? If you don't want it...they just move on down the road! The amazing thing is...just about every farm here has a well or two! And while a few may grumble about the oil/gas company they seem to have no trouble cashing the check?
I think anybody who knows what it was like 50 years ago would argue that the oil/gas companies have cleaned up their act in a big way? You talk about environmental protection...there was absolutely nothing back then!
There has to be some common sense to this whole thing or we won't have an industry...period! I think with the checks and balances in place, we have a pretty good assurance that our land and water is being protected...some don't...some never would be assured no matter what! The fact is they want NO oil and gas developement...and like a dog in the manger they don't want their neighbor to get any either!
I'll tell you something, without the CBM in my area these last couple of years a lot more farmers would be gone! That lease money has allowed farmers to feed the cows, buy the fertilizer, and pay the bills!
Despite all the rhetoric on here I bet 95% of the farmers in 35-27(CBM pilot project)will patricipate? And everyone of them will cash the check and enjoy the extra money.
I find it confusing when the industry and the EUB reach out to try to work with landowners, the legitimate concerns of landowners are over shadowed by a vocal minority who want to shut down the project at all costs? This country was built by co-operation and give and take, not by "my way or the highway"! All wealth comes out of the ground or the sea, whether it is fish, grain,lumber or beef. We need to work together not be at each others throats!