What if ‘Axe the Tax’ leaves most Canadians worse off?

[AlbertaFarmer5]

Chuck2, the title of your thread is “What if ‘Axe the tax’ leaves Canadians worse off.” So now your saying “any measure to reduce emissions will have a cost to the economy.” And instead of saying Canadians are worse off your changing your statement to 80% of households are getting the actual tax back. I thought the premise was low income households got more than what they payed back? How does the carbon tax incentivize change if 80% get the tax back or for that matter lower income Canadians who benefit from the rebates according to the PBO? Are only 20% of Canadians supposed to change what they do? Are the carbon tax incentives just a low income subsidy not a climate policy? What if the tax wasn’t charged 80% wouldn’t need the tax back because they wouldn’t have payed it!!

As for your opinion that any reduction in emissions costs money. Hmmm, now your admitting utilizing solar and wind generation increases costs as AB5 has maintained all along? I thought electric cars were going to save us money. But of course they cost more to buy, they weigh on average at 30% more than their ICE equivalents and then there is all those government subsidies. Curious we don’t have to pay companies to build gas stations but some reason electric car chargers must be built or subsidized by government. I could go on but why bother, your opinion won’t change and neither will mine. Curious though, I wrote all that without insults or name calling, imagine.

I find that if you want to get a response from Chuck, then the post has to be inflammatory enough to appeal to someone of his intellectual immaturity. Polite, considerate, well reasoned posts tend to go unanswered. He is here for a brawl, playground style, not an adult intellectual debate.

[fjlip]

Excellent counter arguments guys!

[chuckChuck]

Chuck2, the title of your thread is “What if ‘Axe the tax’ leaves Canadians worse off.” So now your saying “any measure to reduce emissions will have a cost to the economy.” And instead of saying Canadians are worse off your changing your statement to 80% of households are getting the actual tax back. I thought the premise was low income households got more than what they payed back? How does the carbon tax incentivize change if 80% get the tax back or for that matter lower income Canadians who benefit from the rebates according to the PBO? Are only 20% of Canadians supposed to change what they do? Are the carbon tax incentives just a low income subsidy not a climate policy? What if the tax wasn’t charged 80% wouldn’t need the tax back because they wouldn’t have payed it!!

As for your opinion that any reduction in emissions costs money. Hmmm, now your admitting utilizing solar and wind generation increases costs as AB5 has maintained all along? I thought electric cars were going to save us money. But of course they cost more to buy, they weigh on average at 30% more than their ICE equivalents and then there is all those government subsidies. Curious we don’t have to pay companies to build gas stations but some reason electric car chargers must be built or subsidized by government. I could go on but why bother, your opinion won’t change and neither will mine. Curious though, I wrote all that without insults or name calling, imagine.

The real reason why electricity is higher priced in Alberta is because of intentional market supply reductions so the utilities can charge more. Several economists have explained this but you wont admit it! In fact because solar and wind are priced lower the increased supply helps keep prices lower.

And Alberta has been subsidizing the oil and gas industry with reduced royalty rates until the capital costs are paid back. But you won't admit that either.

There is a lot of denial in Alberta!

[furrowtickler]

The real reason why electricity is higher priced in Alberta is because of intentional market supply reductions so the utilities can charge more. Several economists have explained this but you wont admit it! In fact because solar and wind are priced lower the increased supply helps keep prices lower.

And Alberta has been subsidizing the oil and gas industry with reduced royalty rates until the capital costs are paid back. But you won't admit that either.

There is a lot of denial in Alberta!

So you see Alberta as a poster child for wind and solar , but still show huge disdain for Albertans
that’s unfortunate, but not surprising from you .

[chuckChuck]

Only some Albertans. The rest are fine.

The free market embraces solar and wind. I thought the free market is always right!

[blackpowder]

I was fine with coal. Generations of self sufficiency. It wasn't the free market that threw that out.
Just like diesel engines. When the conversation was cleverly shifted from pollution to carbon, it was no longer a natural outcome.

[furrowtickler]

Only some Albertans. The rest are fine.

The free market embraces solar and wind. I thought the free market is always right!

The majority of those projects are only there so companies can score some ESG’s on their balance sheet .

[chuckChuck]

Transalta's plans for renewables are not window dressing.

[url]https://transalta.com/newsroom/transalta-announces-growth-targets-to-2028-financial-outlook-for-2024-and-declares-dividend-increase-of-9/[/url]

Customer-Centred Clean Electricity Growth Plan to 2028


The Company’s recently updated strategic growth targets include:

• Delivering up to 1.75 GW of incremental renewables capacity with a targeted investment of $3.5 billion by the end of 2028;
• Focusing growth on customer-centred renewables and storage through the development of its 4.8 GW development pipeline; and
• Expanding the Company’s development pipeline to 10 GW by 2028.

[Hamloc]

Transalta's plans for renewables are not window dressing.

[url]https://transalta.com/newsroom/transalta-announces-growth-targets-to-2028-financial-outlook-for-2024-and-declares-dividend-increase-of-9/[/url]

Customer-Centred Clean Electricity Growth Plan to 2028


The Company’s recently updated strategic growth targets include:

• Delivering up to 1.75 GW of incremental renewables capacity with a targeted investment of $3.5 billion by the end of 2028;
• Focusing growth on customer-centred renewables and storage through the development of its 4.8 GW development pipeline; and
• Expanding the Company’s development pipeline to 10 GW by 2028.

Interesting graph and information from AESO 2022 annual report.

[Hamloc]

Chuck2, you always go on about how new technology is such a great advancement. As you can see above coal had a capacity factor of 92%, solar had a capacity factor of 13%, actual numbers. You believe a generation source with a 13% capacity factor is the answer?! A technological advancement?! You think storage can supply electricity from solar the other 87% of the time?

[Hamloc]

From a study by Blake Shaffer. Cost of solar according to this graph is higher than average and higher than wind.

[chuckChuck]

The Province has a goal of 30% of renewable by 2030

Wind and solar generation are growing by leaps and bounds in Alberta. According to the Canadian Renewable Energy Association, Western Canada in 2022 accounted for 98 per cent of Canada’s total growth in wind and solar, with Alberta adding 1,391 MW and Saskatchewan adding 387 MW of installed capacity. The AESO anticipates renewables will comprise 30 per cent of supply in the 2024-2026 time frame.

[chuckChuck]

Its a transition Hamloc, and many more renewable projects are coming in Alberta including storage. But dont let that stop you from saying renewables dont work!

"Blessed with ample wind and solar resources, and supported by the province’s competitive electricity market, Alberta is attracting significant private investment in renewables generation and energy storage projects, estimated at more than $4 billion since 2019.

As shown in this chart, 12,600 MW of solar capacity, 9,100 MW of wind and 5,556 MW of energy storage are either under construction, have received approval by the Alberta Utilities Commission (AUC) or been announced by project proponents."

[url]https://www.aeso.ca/future-of-electricity/albertas-power-system-in-transition/[/url]

[Hamloc]

Chuck2, as stated above “neither wind or solar match winter peak loads well.”

As for your assertion that workers will charge their electric vehicles at work, who is going to pay for all this charging infrastructure? The government, therefore the taxpayer? Look at Olymel in Red Deer as an example, I believe about 500 employees. What would it cost Olymel to install even 100 car chargers, a lot of money.

[Hamloc]

The Province has a goal of 30% of renewable by 2030

Wind and solar generation are growing by leaps and bounds in Alberta. According to the Canadian Renewable Energy Association, Western Canada in 2022 accounted for 98 per cent of Canada’s total growth in wind and solar, with Alberta adding 1,391 MW and Saskatchewan adding 387 MW of installed capacity. The AESO anticipates renewables will comprise 30 per cent of supply in the 2024-2026 time frame.

At present renewables comprise 33.8% of Alberta’s generation capacity. This includes wind, solar and hydro. This generated just over 12% of Alberta’s power in 2022. Imagine how much investment in renewables it will take to get to 30% of supply. And Chuck2 why with over 30% of our generation capacity being renewable isn’t our electricity price coming down? And will that 30% of supply be available when we need it?!