Kool aid getting undrinkable

[chuckChuck]

How many of you guys want to go back to your dial up internet, party lines or pre GPS auto steering equipment? I think we can safely say zero.

Most new technology is much better and a huge advancement.

We have been using electricity to power many things for a long time. Battery costs have come down and have improved significantly and will continue to improve with solid state batteries coming in a couple of more years. And after that there will be continuous innovation.

And many EVs can be charged during the day while they are parked at work. That would be the ideal time to charge them when there is lots of low cost solar electricity.

We need more lower cost EVs that are close to the cost of ICE vehicles. That will happen. For most consumers EVs will easily cover their transportation needs.

The reason why many people are holding back on current EVs is cost and lack of charging infrastructure that makes range anxiety a concern.

[blackpowder]

Just remember all of your examples were demand driven.

[cropgrower]

i would gladly go back to the way things were 30 or 40 years ago , far simpler times

[fjlip]

Tripling the generation and tripling grid is FREE! How lucky!
The demand for materials to do that will make costs sky rocket. Unviable.
Fixing something that's NOT broke. Woke bastards.

[furrowtickler]

Tripling the generation and tripling grid is FREE! How lucky!
The demand for materials to do that will make costs sky rocket. Unviable.
Fixing something that's NOT broke. Woke bastards.

That’s the astonishing thing that is never talked about . The infrastructure alone is near impossible for decades and the materials needed for 100% EV’s will cause untold environmental destruction and are even more limited than oil and gas .
But hey why look at the basics, we now live in a fairy tail world of woke ideology that is mostly pretend anyway

[Guest]

think of the pristine , co2 free , carbon tax free, wood chips from sask. being burnt in europe , emissions free , (if you are an idiot)

[WiltonRanch]

Apparently that big battery plant coming to Canada which our government subsidized for billions in hopes of providing 1600 jobs is not what Trudeau envisioned. The permanent jobs are to be filled by Koreans and the builders tfw’s. Aurora has to start finding accommodations for all these folks. Allegedly Trudeau wasn’t aware there would be little to no Canadians hired.

[Guest]

Can’t imagine the airhead missing that ? ******

[cropgrower]

chucks grandkids 2050

[TSIPP]

And yet 98% of green house gases is the villain water vapour that the experts leave out of every debate.

[biglentil]

The plan is to expand capacity of the system. Just like we have expanded the system all along.

Remember ICEs are 20% efficient vs 80% for EVs. So the total energy usage for EVs will be 60% lower.

Who in their right mind thinks wasting 60% of fossil fuel energy in an ICE is a good thing?

Oh right the electricity comes from the magical electricity fairy. Chuck you are either playing dumb or .....

A coal or natural gas power plant like the one that provides power to your farm is only about 35% efficient multiply that by your 80% efficient EV and you get an overall efficiency of 0.28.

A diesel or natural gas vehicle on the other hand is about 30% efficient.

Factor in the massive amount of resources required to manufacture the EV batteries and their limited life span and ICE vehicles definitely pollute less.

[rumrocks]

Oh right the electricity comes from the magical electricity fairy. Chuck you are either playing dumb or .....

A coal or natural gas power plant like the one that provides power to your farm is only about 35% efficient multiply that by your 80% efficient EV and you get an overall efficiency of 0.28.

A diesel or natural gas vehicle on the other hand is about 30% efficient.

Factor in the massive amount of resources required to manufacture the EV batteries and their limited life span and ICE vehicles definitely pollute less.

Don't forget electricity line loss, about 3% every 1000km.

[chuckChuck]

Lentil the flat earther is wrong. 80% of Canada's electricity already comes from non carbon emitting sources hydro at 60%, nuclear and renewables.

How EVs compare to gas cars on emissions over their total lifespan

[url]https://www.theglobeandmail.com/drive/mobility/article-how-evs-compare-to-gas-cars-on-emissions-over-their-total-lifespan/[/url]


With electric vehicles gaining more range, mostly owing to larger batteries, some critics contend that EVs are worse for the environment than gas-powered ones.

One of the claims is that battery electric vehicles (BEVs) produce nearly as much greenhouse gases as gas cars over their lifespans – if you include the emissions from mining minerals to make batteries.

But, if you compare a BEV to a gas car over its whole life – from mining for materials to recycling the car once it’s off the road – a BEV is responsible for a third, or less, emissions than a gas vehicle, multiple studies show.

“It’s true that [BEVs] are more energy intensive to manufacture because of the batteries,” said Joanna Kyriazis, Ottawa-based director of public affairs with Clean Energy Canada, an energy think tank at Simon Fraser University in Burnaby, B.C. “But because they have no tailpipe emissions, they very quickly break even [on CO2] emissions and then come out ahead of gas vehicles.”

A 2022 study from Ford Motors and the University of Michigan ([url]https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2022/03/04/new-study-finds-greater-greenhouse-gas-reductions-for-pickup-tru.html[/url]) found that light-duty BEVs, which include sedans, SUVs and pickup trucks, rack up 64 per cent less in greenhouse gas emissions over their lifespan than gas vehicles.

A 2021 study by the International Council on Clean Transportation ([url]https://theicct.org/publication/a-global-comparison-of-the-life-cycle-greenhouse-gas-emissions-of-combustion-engine-and-electric-passenger-cars/[/url]) found that emissions over the lifetime of average medium-size BEVs registered today are considerably lower than comparable gasoline cars – by 66 to 69 per cent in Europe and 60 to 68 per cent in the United States.

But the batteries in BEVs do pose some different environmental risks than gas and diesel vehicles. For instance, we’ll need to expand lithium mining to meet battery demand and we’ll also need to ensure that batteries are properly recycled at the end of their useful lives.

“People are right to make sure that this new technology lives up to the hype,” said Cedric Smith, director of transportation with Pollution Probe, a Toronto-based environmental non-profit. “That being said, every study I’ve seen shows that BEVs are far better for the environment.”

Breaking even?

So, how long does a BEV have to be on the road before it accounts for less overall emissions than a gas-powered car?

That Ford study found that BEVs break even after up to 1.3 years for sedans, 1.6 years for SUVs and 1.3 years for pickup trucks, “based on the average U.S. grid and [average] vehicle miles travelled.”

A 2021 Reuters analysis ([url]https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/when-do-electric-vehicles-become-cleaner-than-gasoline-cars-2021-06-29/[/url]) of data from the U.S. Department of Energy’s Argonne National Laboratory ([url]https://www.energy.gov/eere/vehicles/articles/fotw-1303-august-14-2023-cradle-grave-electric-vehicles-have-fewer[/url]) in Chicago showed that a BEV will have to drive about 21,725 kilometres before it comes out ahead of a gas car.

Of course, this break-even number varies from state to state and province to province, based on the kinds of energy used to power the electrical grid. In the United States, about 60 per cent ([url]https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=427&t=3#:~:text=In%202022%2C%20about%20[/url] 4%2C231%20billion,facilities%20in%20the%20United%2 0States.&text=About%2060%25%20of%20this%20electric ity,%2C%20petroleum%2C%20and%20other%20gases.) of electricity is generated using fossil fuels, according to the U.S. Energy Information Administration. In contrast, Ontario generates about 80 per cent of its energy from nuclear and hydro combined, with just 10 per cent from natural gas, according to the Independent Electricity System Operator, a Crown corporation responsible for operating the electricity market in the province.

The proportion generated from fossil fuels will lessen as more batteries and cars are manufactured using renewable electricity, including wind and solar power – and as more cars on the road get charged using renewable electricity, Ms. Kyriazis said.

“BEVs’ environmental performance has nowhere to go but up as we’re phasing out CO2-emitting electricity,” Ms. Kyriazis said. “But when you buy a gas car, the amount of emissions that you’re going to be producing over its lifetime is just going to stay static – or probably get worse as the vehicle gets older and is running less efficiently.”

Sarah McBain, a senior analyst with the Pembina Institute, a Calgary-based clean energy think tank, said Canadian studies show EVs produce lower lifetime CO2 emissions ([url]https://policyoptions.irpp.org/fr/magazines/july-2018/electric-vehicles-as-part-of-canadas-climate-change-solution/#:~:text=So%20EVs%20have%20a%20higher,to%20decarbo[/url] nize%20Canada's%20transportation%20sector.) than gas vehicles now even in provinces that use coal and natural gas ([url]https://www.2degreesinstitute.org/reports/comparing_ghg_emissions_of_bevs_and_icevs.pdf[/url]) to generate electricity.

For example, in Alberta – where, in 2022, 82 per cent of power ([url]https://www.aeso.ca/future-of-electricity/albertas-power-system-in-transition/[/url]) came from natural gas and coal – BEVs still produce 16 per cent lower total emissions than gas cars, Ms. Kyriazis said.

That difference will “get greater and greater over time” if Alberta, which has said it will be phasing out coal from the grid by the end of this year, adds more renewable energy ([url]https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/alberta-climate-summit-rural-renewable-energy-talk-1.7008996[/url]), Ms. Kyriazis said.

Pembina’s McBain added that gas cars also emit pollutants including nitrogen dioxide, ozone and fine particulate matter, that contribute to smog.

“The rise in electric vehicles on Canada’s roads will help reduce adverse health effects and also contribute to significant savings in health-care costs,” Ms. McBain said in an e-mail.

EVs and the culture wars

In the United States, at least, BEVs are now part of the culture wars between the political right and left, Ms. Kyriazis said. That has included some inaccurate claims about their environmental impact compared to gas-powered vehicles.

“People have no idea how bad [BEV production] is going to be also for the environment,” former U.S. president Donald Trump ([url]https://www.cnn.com/2023/09/28/business/cars-trump-uaw-electric-vehicles/index.html[/url]) said at a campaign stop in Detroit ([url]https://popular.info/p/the-uaw-trump-and-the-electrified?r=f7s8&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=we[/url] b) in September.

“[In the U.S.], critics are scrutinizing the environmental performance of [BEVs], but I don’t think they’re thinking about the environmental performance of gas cars,” Ms. Kyriazis said. “I’m hoping that this polarization [over BEVs] is dissipated by the rise in BEV manufacturing, including in Republican states.”

[blackpowder]

A little tired today?

[chuckChuck]

Not at all. But don't let the facts get in your way of lame arguments with no evidence.