Life?

[kpb]

A couple of thoughts on this. First of all, the plan could be flexible enough, surely, to accomodate stockers, backgrounders, bred heifer producers, etc.

Secondly, there is no denying that, from a purely financial point of view, the dairyman is the most successful farmer in the country. Now you can say that this or that dairyman has gone under but I think that is a mighty rare occurrence. Year in and year out it is the dairy industry that prospers and the small hog and beef guys that wither on the vine.

In regards to quota--I favor grassfarmer's suggestion of a fixed quota. But for sake of argument lets look at spud's objection of a high entry fee to the industry based on rising quota. If it costs $1.2 million to own a viable dairy operation, what do you think it costs to own a sometimes viable beef operation? I figure a commercial cow-calf operator running a herd that sells calves in the fall needs 300 cows. I'm not talking about guys who work off the farm (how many dairy guys need to do that?)--but rather a full-time cow-calf man. The cows will cost $300,000 and in just about anywhere in Alberta the land base to run these animals will be at least $1 million.

All of this to gain entry to the cow-calf industry--an industry with an uncertain future, at least for the small guy (and unless we do something 300 cows will look small in 10 years time) and an industry where the prices the producer gets are set by huge, monopolistic, multi-national corporations and generally provide a poor relative living. As opposed to an industry where the prices are set by the producers themselves. And we like our current system???

Finally, again, the plan is voluntary. If anyone likes the current system, then stay with it, don't join up, keep the government out of your operation. The export market will still exist, just like it does now and you'll get the same price for your cattle you get now.

kpb

[cowman]

A few things you might have missed kpb: A minimum stand alone dairy requires at least 100 cows(couple of Dutch dairy farmers have told me that)which means your quota is $3.5 million?(Again Dutch dairy farmers claim quota is 35K/cow)
Very unlikely you can buy the cows, barn, land, equipment for less than another $million?
I believe the mistake the government made was ever letting quota become real property? It should have always been allocated...until your farm quit milking cows and then it went to the next guy? The idea was supposed to be to manage supply...not as a get rich scheme?
It would appear, in the beef business, there is no end of optimists ready to plunk down their money for the opportunity to play cowboy? And a lot of them can afford to! This cow/calf business seems to have some sort of appeal, outside dollars and cents? Or sense? Almost like the horsey set?
The way I see it is let them go at it! If farmers can't make it pay...then probably no one can? But then they don't have to, right?

[spudchucker]

I realize that it is going to be expensive to get into any agricultural business. My problem with the dairy business is that most of that investment will be in a paper asset that can disappear with the stroke of a bigwigs signature on a trade deal at any moment.
At least with another agricultural enterprise, I will be borrowing for "hard" assets that I can see and touch and as opposed to a piece of paper.

[cswilson]

Thank God there's somewhere in the world besides Alberta to run cows in-1,300,000 would probably get a 5-700 cow unit over here in 'have not' Saskatchewan-we've run cows here for 90 years but I think a quota system would pretty much do it for me. Our industry needs alot less government not alot more-over here where we ranch without Ralph's largesse we've learned to live like that.

[coppertop]

cswilson, I don't quite understand your last comments about learning to live like that, do you mean less government in Sask.? I thought NDP was a nannystate type of government !!!

Actually, we in Alberta, will be living without Ralph fairly soon !!!

[cswilson]

Alberta is alot more socialist in their handouts to Agriculture than the NDP's ever were-hate to shattter the free enterprise Alberta loves to cultivate but your government cow milks on a few more teats than ours does. Would love to pay your land taxes about a third of what ours are here for comparable land-but it's all good-if it was too easy more people would move here lol.

[coppertop]

The province does NOT set the land taxes cwilson. Those taxes are set by individual municipalities, and they vary from one area of the province to the other depending entirely on the assessment of the municipalitiy.

Municipalities with lower assessment or that are carrying a large debt usually have a higher millrate. In most cases farmland and residential mill rate is significantly less than commercial/industrial.

I think that your NDP auto insurance is likely considerably less than Alberta, at least until this province took steps to get insurance rates under control.

I would appreciate it if you would list some of these Alberta subsidies, maybe I am not getting some of them, thats why I don't realize what they are !

[cswilson]

I just listen to my buddies in Alberta is all-during the drought we had Albertan's over here in June snapping up all the hay with their Ralpie bucks. Guys leasing pasture up here and getting government money to do it-guys buying 4D cows herew and hauling them west to sell the heads. I realize the provincial government doesn't set the land taxes but they must be kinder to the counties so they don't have to set the tax rate so high. Hey I got no problem with it I have no urge to move west-I kind of like it just where I am lol. That's the hardest thing for some Albertan's to accept is that the whole world doesn't want to trade them places lol. Pretty funny when I'm buying bulls at Bow Slope and they gavel them down as 'Another Bul;l to the Have-Not Province' fun stuff.

[coppertop]

If any business made the 'have not province comment' cswilson I can assure you they do not speak for the average Albertan. I, for one, envy residents of Sask. for the clean air, the neat tidy cities, landscape that isn't chewed up with lease roads etc. We do have resource riches here in Alberta but make no mistake it is not never never land !!
With respect to grants to municipalities, the Municipal Assistance Grant was done away with when the Klein government came in power. It provided assistance for roads, streets, etc., and was based, if I am not mistaken on population of municipalities both rural and urban.

There are new grants, I agree, but many of them are geared to keeping infrastructure under the industries that locate in this province. If you travelled through my local town you would understand what I mean. The streets are full of potholes, and in fact the gravel road past my home is smoother and believe me its' no hell to drive.

There are municipalities in this province that have little or no resource revenue, they have a tough time keeping up with the essential services for their citizens.

The 4D cull cow program was supposed to be rigourously monitored, but as with anything where there is money at stake there are those that will try and abuse it. My neighbour ran a herd of 150 cows, and admitted to having 17 put down, now that is a real stretch as far as I am concerned. I can see 2-5% of a herd that kept the old girls one or two more years longer than they should have but over 10% going as 4D cows makes me a bit suspicious !!!

I did not apply through the CAIS program, too much red tape, did not take advantage of the 4D program.

[coppertop]

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Sunday, Jun 04, 2006
Experts predict Calgary to become urban sprawl capital of Canada


CALGARY (CP) - With a geographical footprint the same size as New York City but only about 10 per cent of the population, it's no wonder some experts worry that the booming metropolis of Calgary may become the worst offender in Canada when it comes to urban sprawl.
Land - lots of it - has allowed the city to avoid the more controlled, efficient development some cities are forced into by their locale.

"Calgary will for the foreseeable future continue to grow out," says Karen Wilkie, a senior policy analyst with the Canada West Foundation. "The issue really is growing outward with no limits."

"When you think about the rate of Calgary's growth, the only limit is the city's inability to continue to annex more land."




The rapid expansion, mostly southward, has created a number of far-flung communities, increased reliance on automobiles and gobbled up some prime agricultural land.

There are environmental concerns as well, with the brown haze of pollution from heavy traffic areas sometimes visible 40 kilometres away.

"We're creating a car culture and longer commute times back and forth, and car trips create air quality issues," said Wilkie.




"The city of Calgary is starting to have air quality days that are similar to the city of Toronto, and that certainly takes away that small Prairie town and puts Calgary in a more realistic modern day sense," she said.

Brian Pincott of the Sierra Club in Calgary is also concerned about the apparently limitless sprawl.

"Right now we're probably equivalent to some of the worst cities in Canada, but because of our booming economy we really have the potential to become way worse," he warns.

"There's only one city in Canada that is at our standard, and that is North York outside of Toronto. If you look at the sprawling burbs of Toronto, that is essentially what we are doing."


It's now a full 25 kilometres from the city centre to the new southern outskirts of Calgary. Rolling green hills are dotted with the large rural spreads known as acreages, palatial homes and private riding arenas. Complaints abound about insufficient transit, roads and schools.

"We're still building all this sprawling crap, so the crunch is happening right now where we are going to tip over and become way worse than any other Canadian city," Pincott said.

But Calgary's mayor takes exception to the criticism.

"We don't have sprawl today," says Dave Bronconnier. "What you're seeing is sprawl that's occurred primarily from rapid growth in the 1960s, '70s and '80s."

"The public policies are working. They're reversing a trend and seeing it in the form of more multi-family homes, significantly higher densities, more mixed-use projects and more high-rise towers."

Another characteristic of urban sprawl - defined as the expansive, rapid, and sometimes reckless growth of a greater metropolitan area - is new neighbourhoods of single-family residences with low population density.

But Bronconnier points to the redevelopment of some sectors in the inner city as a sign that Calgary's policies are working and he scoffs at suggestions there's no end in sight to the city's expansion plans.

"Those are people living in a dream world - the same people that came out with a stat that said we'd go from here to Kananaskis (90 kilometres to the west) based on their own formulas."

Bronconnier also notes that his city has one of the highest percentages of urban park space in Canada.

Pincott concedes Calgary has made some positive moves in its redevelopment, but he's still looking for a strategy to deal with future expansion.

"It doesn't appear that there's any end in sight and the city is certainly in conversation in annexing more land," he said.

"As long as the city views annexation as the solution, we are just going to continue doing exactly the same thing."